Christine Mboma wins Diamond League 200m

[NotBadConsidering]

Christine Mboma is male. Shericka Jackson 2nd. Dina Asher-Smith came 3rd.

www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/58442621

Obviously no mention of the controversy around a male sex person running in women’s athletics by the brief summary by the BBC .

Previous thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4312328-Female-Namibian-runners-change-events-due-to-too-high-testosterone

At each series the prize money is as follows:

www.diamondleague.com/rules/

1st 10,000 USD
2nd 6000
3rd 3500

Allowing this male to continue to run is costing women thousands of dollars each time .

Also noticed Francine Nyonsaba won the 5,000m. What is the reasoning behind banning these athletes from some distances but not others?

Because World Athletics didn’t have the data to say conclusively to the Court of Arbitration for Sport that there was an advantage in other distances, only those middle distance events. They will now be able to use these victories to demonstrate that eventually, but women miss out in the meantime.

Given Christine's family circumstances $10000 is a considerable prize and must present a considerable incentive for athletes with vsd conditions, especially those from poorer countries.

This does need to be addressed but I think it's uncalled for to refer to Christine Mboma as "this male". She certainly was thought to be female at birth and until puberty (and beyond perhaps and now?) lived as a female. I imagine that she considers herself female due to the above two points. I do understand that she likely has male chromosomes but she did not develop into a sexually mature male due hormone insensitivity. I do think there should be categories made for athletes in this situation as she has clearly put in the training and athletics is her life. I think it would be more constructive to try to work this out without just dismissing someone like Christine as "this male". The current situation is definitely unfair to female athletes so it needs addressing urgently, but sensitively and kindly. Because Christine did not choose to be born with this condition.

Mboma is male. Mboma has 46XY chromosomes, testes and androgen sensitivity, otherwise Mboma wouldn’t be subject to this particular ruling, which only applies to those individuals with these criteria. Mboma has been through male puberty. Mboma has male skeletal structure, male muscle mass, male cardiac output, male VO2max, male pelvic angles, no uterus and has never had to deal with fluctuations in oestrogen or progesterone affecting performance and has never had a period.

I will refer to Mboma as male for these reasons. I will not refer to Mboma as female because of a medical clerical error or to “be kind”. There’s nothing kind about women being deprived of success because of a male winning their races. Mboma didn’t chose to be born with this condition but chooses to continue to compete against females despite now knowing about this condition.

Yes but…at puberty, given the condition this athlete has, it would have become clear they were male. At which point they are a mediocre male athlete taking prizes from phenomenal female athletes. So no, I have no capacity to be sympathetic about their athletic prowess. I am hugely sympathetic that they were born with a DSD.

I agree that Christine did not ask to be born with this condition, but I also think that you are incorrect regarding her VSD condition. She is unable to compete in certain events because she shares the same condition as Caster Semenya and therefore will have, like Caster , gone through a male puberty. However, I do agree that athletes with these conditions have to be treated with kindness and the first thing their athletic associations should do , is not put them forward in an incorrect category where their conditions will be exposed to worldwide scrutiny and conjecture.

I know that Mbomba is male, but I still think "this male" and the way you have used it in your OP is dripping with distain. And therefore not a constructive way to talk about someone who grew up as female and encourage solutions to this issue.

“This male” is an accurate description, and distinguishes the discussion from the other males in women’s competition, like Francine Niyonsaba.

And I DO have disdain. Well done on picking it up, I wasn’t trying to hide it. I have disdain for the authorities that allow this to happen, the press for failing to report the truth, and for the individuals who continue to compete despite knowing their biological condition, like Semenya did for 10 years. I will not apologise for showing disdain. I don’t care about being nice, or having a kind discussion. I care about protecting women’s sport for females. The feelings of males who have difficulty finding a place to compete isn’t my concern.

And there is a simple solution to this issue. Only females in women’s and girls sport. Males cannot enter and compete, no matter how they’ve been raised.

You are correct Pendhxa our disdain should be aimed in this case , at the cynical exploitation of this young athlete by their national association. They should never have found themselves in this position.

Well you are certainly entitled to your point of view and to state it however you like. But in my opinion, it makes the discussion far more confrontational and therefore less productive. A solution is needed for all athletes - female and intersex.

How bloody shocking for people with this condition to grow up as female and then to find out they have no uterus or ovaries but instead have internal testes. I actually do think a bit of kindness is needed in dealing with a person who has suffered in this way.

Firstly, it’s a presumption that these athletes only find out late. It’s perfectly reasonable to assume they’ve always known they’re male but are competing in women’s competition anyway. It’s part of the narrative that people would have you believe that these athletes are victims. No one knows because the Namibian authorities are not being honest.

Second, there is a clear solution. If you’re male - and that includes males with DSDs, like Mboma - you can’t compete in women’s competition.

Women and girls don’t owe these athletes anything. Not kindness, not consideration, not debate, because to do so only leads to obfuscation and lessening of the protection for women’s and girls’ sport. That’s why Semenya was allowed to take Diamond League prize money, medals and sponsorship for 10 years; there was 10 years of “kindness” and consideration of what to do. Those women who lost out, you’re telling those women they should be kind? It won’t get them their money back.

Stop it now for Mboma with clear boundaries, so the cumulative loss for women doesn’t become another 10 years. That can’t be done with “kindness”.

Yes it must indeed be shocking and the trauma can only be exacerbated by having your medical condition broadcast to the world. The financial incentives might be considerable but it comes at a cost. However, it also comes at a cost for the female athletes with whom these VSD athletes compete. They too are looking to make a living from their sport and they are being denied this opportunity.

I admire your stance on this issue @NotBadConsidering. My first instinct when I read about this athlete was sympathy because they are being exploited by their agents and federation. However, this is not a matter women should concern themselves about at the moment, only females should be allowed to compete in girls' and women's sport.

How bloody shocking for people with this condition to grow up as female and then to find out they have no uterus or ovaries but instead have internal testes

Yes, but that doesn’t mean they should be allowed in women’s sport. Women’s sport doesn’t exist as a consolation prize

There's no value judgement in being male. It just is what it is. Quite frankly it doesn't matter at what point a person's DSD is discovered what matters is that the sporting authorities and those athletes do know right now and have done for some time.

Yet rather than set firm boundaries to protect female athletics they allow female athletes to lose out on medals, money and records over and over again.

Male athletes would never be treated this way. Look at the outrage and concern Pistorius and his blades caused. That was one man and he was tested extensively for the slightest hint of an advantage for a long time before he was ever allowed near a competitive race.

@NotBadConsidering

Firstly, it’s a presumption that these athletes only find out late. It’s perfectly reasonable to assume they’ve always known they’re male but are competing in women’s competition anyway. It’s part of the narrative that people would have you believe that these athletes are victims. No one knows because the Namibian authorities are not being honest.

Second, there is a clear solution. If you’re male - and that includes males with DSDs, like Mboma - you can’t compete in women’s competition.

Women and girls don’t owe these athletes anything. Not kindness, not consideration, not debate, because to do so only leads to obfuscation and lessening of the protection for women’s and girls’ sport. That’s why Semenya was allowed to take Diamond League prize money, medals and sponsorship for 10 years; there was 10 years of “kindness” and consideration of what to do. Those women who lost out, you’re telling those women they should be kind? It won’t get them their money back.

Stop it now for Mboma with clear boundaries, so the cumulative loss for women doesn’t become another 10 years. That can’t be done with “kindness”.

Well said @NotBadConsidering

It is absolutely shocking for these young people to find out that they have a condition that in many countries would have been diagnosed at birth. It is fair to feel sympathy for them, and to be concerned that their lives have been made difficult by a health system that has let them down.

But feeling sympathy doesn't automatically mean they should be given anything they want. The facts are the facts. They may not have known that they are male, but they are. To expect every female athlete who runs at 200m, or 1500m, or whatever events are now being dominated by male athletes is far, far to much to expect even by the most extreme proponents of the "be kind" narrative.

How kind should women be? If they are to allow male people who were brought up as female in order to be kind, must they allow male people who think they are female? Or males with naturally low testosterone levels? What about male people who aren't good enough to compete in the male events but come from deprived backgrounds where winning would make a big difference to their families, should they too be allowed to compete in the women's events?

If there are is to be a female category there must be a simple, provable line drawn. In my opinion the only fair place for that line is genetic - XX only in women's sports.

@TurquoiseBaubles

It is absolutely shocking for these young people to find out that they have a condition that in many countries would have been diagnosed at birth. It is fair to feel sympathy for them, and to be concerned that their lives have been made difficult by a health system that has let them down.

But feeling sympathy doesn't automatically mean they should be given anything they want. The facts are the facts. They may not have known that they are male, but they are. To expect every female athlete who runs at 200m, or 1500m, or whatever events are now being dominated by male athletes is far, far to much to expect even by the most extreme proponents of the "be kind" narrative.

How kind should women be? If they are to allow male people who were brought up as female in order to be kind, must they allow male people who think they are female? Or males with naturally low testosterone levels? What about male people who aren't good enough to compete in the male events but come from deprived backgrounds where winning would make a big difference to their families, should they too be allowed to compete in the women's events?

If there are is to be a female category there must be a simple, provable line drawn. In my opinion the only fair place for that line is genetic - XX only in women's sports.

Exactly.

One of the biggest reasons I believe this is continuing to happen is that the sporting authorities don't want to completely take away the career of known male athletes who compete in the female category.

They're happy to derail any number of female sporting careers in pursuit of this rather than face the fact that male athletes with DSD conditions are not world ranking athletes when measured against their correct sex class.

If the authorities were to do the the right and fair thing for women's sports they would have to do one of two things, either insist the male athletes with DSDs compete in the male categories or create a new classification for people with DSDs.

If they choose the former they know the careers of those athletes are pretty much done. All the agents and other people who make money from them know this too which is probably why inclusion is pushed so hard.

The latter is a feasible option but it's a longer term strategy and not a quick fix. It would take a number of years to build up a third category, sort out the complexities of different DSDs and for it to become profitable and marketable. This is why it never gets put on the table, it would probably only benefit future athletes and not those here right now.

I’m sick of people trying to water down women’s anger by telling us to be kind, think about the poor people with a male sporting advantage. Maybe it’s my ever decreasing oestrogen levels but I’m all out of kindness for males that willing take places, podiums, money and the glory from women and girls.
#nothankyou

Excellent posts NotBadConsidering.

Imagine trying to discuss this issue without referring to the actual sex of the athletes concerned.

Also, #bekind is like wearing a ball and chain while the non-kind can dance around you.

Absolutely Currant!! I’m also about the whole “but they were raised as a girl and didn’t know & it was all such a shock” argument. That too is used to emotionally manipulate ppl as if they spent their childhood in skirts with bows in their playing with dolls and then suddenly out of the blue someone said “oh you’re male”. I very much doubt that narrative

It is tragic "Disney"fication.

The "male in the female race" (whether it be due to trans or DSD) becomes the poor misunderstood hero from a 90s-or-later Disney story.

They just want to compete, but society is against them, but in the end they triumph, despite the odds.

Sorry, but that's bollocks. It's the lens you're seeing it through, but the only reason they're winning, and hence the finally triumphant "hero", is because they're male, and hence competing unfairly out-of-category.

Everyone has a story. You can't choose one person to be the hero and bend the world around them.

Try to imagine the stories of the women who've trained their whole lives for this and find themselves against males. This could effectively destroy their entire career. They might retire before the rules bodies put a stop to this.

They wanted to be the best woman, competing against their peers. And people are letting men just steal their chances.

That's not "kind".

Hear hear @NotBadConsidering