Christine Mboma wins Diamond League 200m

[NotBadConsidering]

Christine Mboma is male. Shericka Jackson 2nd. Dina Asher-Smith came 3rd.

www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/58442621

Obviously no mention of the controversy around a male sex person running in women’s athletics by the brief summary by the BBC .

Previous thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4312328-Female-Namibian-runners-change-events-due-to-too-high-testosterone

At each series the prize money is as follows:

www.diamondleague.com/rules/

1st 10,000 USD
2nd 6000
3rd 3500

Allowing this male to continue to run is costing women thousands of dollars each time .

Everyone has a story. You can't choose one person to be the hero and bend the world around them.

Great point.

Never seen a pelvis like that on a woman. Why are we constantly being asked to pretend we can't see what is clearly in front of our eyes. Of course having a make pelvis gives you advantage when running. Arghhhhhhh.

Male pelvis that should read. Sorry. Just infuriated by the BBC article I just read on it. The BBC is deeply deeply sexist.

It's all so annoying and as others have said could be resolved in a moment by a simple chromosome test. Only xx female athletes should be able to compete in the women's category.

There used to be someone on mn with this condition.

Raised female, found out at puberty. Tried to give their pov, they looked female, female socialisation etc.

Funnily enough being told they were categorically male, no questions, upset them considerably and they no longer post.

I agree individuals with dsd should not be allowed to compete in womens sports. However this isn’t a trans debate, these people are not choosing to be the opposite sex, they have a medical issue which means their sex is ambiguous, and they may well be phenotypically female.

It’s not “being kind”. It’s acknowledging the dsd. They aren’t female, but neither are they typically male, and telling them they are is wrong.

Friend of mine’s child has just been diagnosed with a dsd at 17. In the UK. It’s devastating and they are all struggling.

They shouldn’t be in sport. But is isn’t as straightforward as “they’re male”.

They shouldn’t be in sport. But is isn’t as straightforward as “they’re male”.

Rest of life, no, sure. But in sport, it really is that straightforward.

But the only reason they're getting this blunt "they're male" reaction is that we've already had years of failure to deal with the issue. Patience has run out. We're now at the "yet another male" stage.

these people are not choosing to be the opposite sex

No, but they are choosing to try to enter female sport, where they can take advantage of being male.

If you are male, and don't want to be bluntly told "you're male", then not entering female sport seems like a good way to avoid that happening.

It's common-sense that a male pelvis is better for running, but there's no data to back this up, mainly because you can't separate the female pelvis from the female heart, lungs, muscle mass etc.

Raised female, found out at puberty. Tried to give their pov, they looked female, female socialisation etc

Sorry to be pedantic, but didn’t that poster have complete androgen sensitivity syndrome?
It’s really important not to conflate different DSDs.

So yes, a person with CAIS would have looked female as they couldn’t androgenise at all and would have remained looking female after puberty.

We know these athletes are subject to the athletic DSD rules which prohibit them from specific races. Therefore, by definition, they are androgen sensitive and go through a male puberty. They don’t look female to me. They also don’t have CAIS as athletes with CAIS are allowed to compete against women.

I’m afraid with this particular DSD it absolutely is straightforward. only males can have this type of DSD - 46XY - Mboma is male, has a male skeleton & has been through a male puberty. There are other DSD to which this doesn’t apply but it does to this one

*sorry, should elaborate, allowed to compete in all races without lowering their testosterone

You're not being at all pedantic nolongersurprised but making a very important point

There are many different kinds of DSD with many different effects on the body. That Other types of DSD exist with different effects doesn’t negate that 46XY exists and that only males can have it

I did not say #bekind. I think #bekind a load of bollocks in actual fact. I did not say we had to “kindly” allow DSD athletes to be in female events. I said a bit of kindness was necessary to deal with someone who’s grown up female and realised at puberty that they aren’t genetically female and get appropriate categories. Totally twisted my point.

I actually think that the female athletes who have been disadvantaged need to have retrospective correct prize money, medals and ceremonies done. But equally I think people like Christine Mbomba deserve an appropriate category to compete in. I don’t think the rectification of women’s sport should be done in isolation. It needs to be done in conjunction with provision for DSD athletes. Why can’t people see the whole picture? Feminism is not for me.

But equally I think people like Christine Mbomba deserve an appropriate category to compete in.

You do have to recognise that the male category is appropriate. To suggest that transwomen shouldn't compete with men is kind of bigotted. Would you say gay men can compete with men?

There is a separate debate about whether they merit a special "restricted" category. You'd have to establish whether there are enough potential competitors, and even whether there is any real sporting performance disadvantage.

I've not seen any evidence that 46XY 5-ARD males have a performance disadvantage against other males. Giving them a separate category may make no more sense than having separate "white" and "black" categories. (Those are potentially justifiable - there are statistical performance differences!)

Now, maybe the only reason is the social one - that they don't want to compete with men - they think they're women, and they think women shouldn't compete with men. But that really is quite regressive. If women were male, there would be no reason to separate them. So if there are male women, having the male women compete with other males, rather than saying "no, you're the wrong sort of male" is inclusive.

But if 5-ARD males really do have a performance disadvantage against other males, and you justify it on that grounds, then a Paralympic category may be justified. But there are LOTS of genetic conditions that impair performance. Why prioritise these DSD conditions? Arguments tend to loop back to the regressive social one previously mentioned.

A Stonewall campaign of "some women are male, get over it" would be appropriate here. Drumming into people's heads that some people who are socially women - transwomen and certain DSDs - are male, and as such compete in men's events, and men and others should get over that.

Feminism is not for me.

What a strange position to take based in this subject. Feminism is a wide ranging subject but at its heart it centres women and girls. That’s what many posters are doing here. You’re free to disagree, many do, but argue your point, explain why you think what you do and you’ll be listened to even if we disagree with you.

The interesting thing about CAIS is that the last time chromosomes were tested at Olympics, in 1996, CAIS athletes were overrepresented among female athletes, cf their population incidence.

Their disorder didn’t stop them competing, by definition they are completely androgen unresponsive (unlike the DSD athletes like Semenya, Mboma etc who go through a male puberty) and there have been long-standing provisions in the rules, predating the androgen sensitive DSD rules, that have allowed people with CAIS to compete in female sport.

It’s just interesting that CAIS athletes seem to have an athletic advantage, although without chromosome testing at Olympics now their true prevalence at elite sport is unknown.

Is it because they’re generally taller and slimmer, or because they don’t have to train with periods or other hormonal factor or other subtle XY factors that are unrelated to androgens?

I've not seen any evidence that 46XY 5-ARD males have a performance disadvantage against other males.

They don’t. They go through a normal male puberty it’s just that their body doesn’t react to DHT as an embryo so their genitals develop differently to other males.

They don’t.

That's what I suspect - as esteemed philospher McKinnon said, "you don't play sport with your genitals".

But it's possible the DHT issues have other effects.

Like CAIS athletes have a slight advantage over females, so are overrepresented, I can imagine a mirror image where 46XY 5-ARD have a slight disadvantage over males, so would be underrepresented.

But by the same mirror - no separate category for either may be justified. CAIS in with female, 5-ARD in with male.

@Jaysmith71

It's common-sense that a male pelvis is better for running, but there's no data to back this up, mainly because you can't separate the female pelvis from the female heart, lungs, muscle mass etc.

Oh there is. Many, many sport science studies into gait analysis show the difference in stride length and cycling speed, ROM, flexion, etc.

It's just that nobody has discussed specifically on male advantage in a female race. After all why would anyone waste funding on that question? Men don't compete against women.

But the knowledge is out there, in many studies over many decades of research.

It’s just interesting that CAIS athletes seem to have an athletic advantage,

The consensus seems to be that even if they do, it really is an advantage along the lines that sport already accommodates in a single category. The classic Michael Phelps' big feet, or the apparent advantage East African runners have on long distances.

It's there, so certain populations are overrepresented, but it's not an insurmountable advantage. Competition is still meaningful within the category.

Unlike sex; or weight in certain sports. The things that require classification.

But equally I think people like Christine Mbomba deserve an appropriate category to compete in.

That’s the male category. There’s no evidence that people with this DSD are disadvantaged relative to other males (the ones running in female categories aren’t as good as male Olympians, but obviously most men aren’t.)

If the person you are talking about on Mumsnet had CAIS, that’s different and more complicated. No male puberty there. But it’s not relevant to this. Mbomba went through male puberty. Their body can use testosterone. They can compete with men.

If men with DSDs want a Paralympic category or something they can organise that themselves, but I doubt anyone would bother. They don’t need any special category. They want to run with women because they will win.

I’m afraid that whilst feminism does centre women and girls, it fiercely discards the rest of humanity. Intersex people are precisely as the name suggests - between male and female. Christine Mbomba, whilst having male chromosomes, is not a fully sexually mature male, due to DSD, and it clearly isn’t as simple as saying “go in the male category”. There needs to be a category for these athletes and in my view, the creation of this category and the rectification of women’s sports are something that go hand in hand in the interests of fairness and decency for all - women and DSD athletes.

It's there, so certain populations are overrepresented, but it's not an insurmountable advantage

If I was allowed to make the rules, I’d keep CAIS individuals in female sport, but all XY DSD athletes who virilise at puberty would be out.

It’s ridiculous to even try to shoe horn them into female categories at all. Even in the distances where restrictions apply, asking a healthy male to reduce their natural testosterone, made from (internal) testes so they can compete as women is just ludicrous really.

Intersex people are precisely as the name suggests - between male and female

🤦‍♀️

This isn’t true and many people with DSDs dislike find the term offensive because it suggests that.

Pendhxa I suggest you do a little research into DSD conditions. Carole Hooven’s book Testosterone is a good start as is the Science of Sport podcasts. I’m sure you’re coming from a good place but many of us here have gone and done the research and know exactly what DSD Mboma has and how their biology works in sport.

Like really, “between male and female” - it’s so offensive! Can’t believe you are here lecturing everyone on how best to respect people with DSDs and then saying stuff like that.