Christine Mboma wins Diamond League 200m

[NotBadConsidering]

Christine Mboma is male. Shericka Jackson 2nd. Dina Asher-Smith came 3rd.

www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/58442621

Obviously no mention of the controversy around a male sex person running in women’s athletics by the brief summary by the BBC .

Previous thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4312328-Female-Namibian-runners-change-events-due-to-too-high-testosterone

At each series the prize money is as follows:

www.diamondleague.com/rules/

1st 10,000 USD
2nd 6000
3rd 3500

Allowing this male to continue to run is costing women thousands of dollars each time .

@OnlyTheLangOfTheTitberg

I have sympathy for any individual exploited by a ruthless national authority, up to the point that individual knows their ongoing participation in a female sporting category is unfair due to their genetic makeup.

But as a PP said, I’m afraid I don’t care very much whether any male individual with a DSD would be competitive in the male category. Elite sport is by definition exclusive, and some of the things it excludes by are health and body type. Them’s the breaks. I’ll never do gymnastics like Simone Biles or box like Nicola Adams but I’m not demanding the rules be changed to make me competitive against them.

Women’s sport is not a consolation prize for men who can’t cut it in their own category, regardless of the reason.

This ^^

And a male without obvious external genitalia regardless of the reason is still a male

And a male without obvious external genitalia regardless of the reason is still a male

So if your daughter got to 16, didn’t start her periods, and was diagnosed with a dsd and was actually XY, you’d be happy for everyone to tell her she’s male, and it didn’t matter how she felt about it?

I’ve just watched a very interesting interview with a DSD individual. Born in London, didn’t look any older than 30 so in the era of scans and modern medicine. Female. Doctors not worried, no one had any reason to think they were anything other than female. “Normal” appearing vagina and female genitalia. Abdominal pain at 11, diagnosed with a dsd.

Imo it’s up to the dsd individual to choose how they want to live, and it’s not for anyone else to start telling them they’re a man.

Nothing to do with sport, or trans, but if you have a disorder which makes your sex ambiguous then it’s their body their choice.

No one is saying people with DSDs can’t determine how they present, but in terms of sport their sex is NOT ambiguous.

So when it comes to being eligible for women’s sport, a male, who has been virilised with the performance-enhancing effects of testosterone should not be eligible for women’s sport, regardless of how they want to be seen. Because it isn’t fair.

Really yes of course the individual in your example can of course live how they choose, but the reality is if they have a testosterone responsive male body then they cannot compete fairly with women at sport. So yes at that point the reality that their body is male does need to be recognised.

you’d be happy for everyone to tell her she’s male, and it didn’t matter how she felt about it?

Well, that's what happens for everyone. Everyone is male or female regardless of how they feel about it.

How much it becomes a big deal rather depends on how much the individual tries to leverage a claim of not being male. Entering female sports is going to make a lot of people point out you're male, if you are.

Nothing to do with sport, or trans, but if you have a disorder which makes your sex ambiguous then it’s their body their choice.

Right, but in Semenya and Mboma's case, there is no ambiguity, is there? There may have been at birth, but not as an adult. They're unambiguously male, they just deny it.

This is not CAIS, which is clearly ambiguous - genetically male, but phenotypically female.

And the athletics people have been very clear that they are not trying to tell anyone "they're a man" or saying "how they should live". They're just making a sporting classification.

No one is saying people with DSDs can’t determine how they present, but in terms of sport their sex is NOT ambiguous

There’s a definite “XY = male”, narrative on this thread, and not just relevant to sport.

This male

“I will not refer to Mboma as female because of a medical clerical error or to “be kind”*

And a male without obvious external genitalia regardless of the reason is still a male

They are a person with a dsd. That is why we are discussing their participation in womens sport, not because they are men who have decided to compete as women, which a whole other issue.

I completely agree that they shouldn’t be competing in womens sport, and I don’t have any answers as to where they should compete.

Right, but in Semenya and Mboma's case, there is no ambiguity, is there? There may have been at birth, but not as an adult. They're unambiguously male, they just deny it

I don’t know. Do they have normal male genitalia and XY chromosomes? Can a child born with genitalia ambiguous enough to be thought female at birth and throughout childhood, and who I believe was subjected to checks on genitalia as a teen to “prove” they weren’t male suddenly grow a normal penis and testicles? As far as i understand you cannot cure or grow out of a dsd.

Mboma is male.

Mboma is not female.

Mboma is not owed kindness from people trying to protect women’s sport.

And a male without obvious external genitalia regardless of the reason is still a male.

Mboma is a person who is male who now knows that, yet is still successfully competing in women’s sport, winning and taking prize money.

I frankly don’t care about Mboma’s feelings, background, or growing up poverty. It’s not the place of women’s sport to address those problems and not the place on this thread to be kind about it, while women suffer losses as a result.

No thank you. Mboma can compete with other males.

Really we’ve tried to explain to you the DSD that is relevant to the athletes in question and we’ve offered places where you can read up on it. Please do so, because we’ve answered these questions and you don’t seem to believe us.

Males with 5-ARD have internal testicles from birth even though their external genitals may be ambiguous or female-like. So they don’t need to suddenly grow these organs, they’ve always had them.

@Reallyreallyborednow

Right, but in Semenya and Mboma's case, there is no ambiguity, is there? There may have been at birth, but not as an adult. They're unambiguously male, they just deny it

I don’t know. Do they have normal male genitalia and XY chromosomes? Can a child born with genitalia ambiguous enough to be thought female at birth and throughout childhood, and who I believe was subjected to checks on genitalia as a teen to “prove” they weren’t male suddenly grow a normal penis and testicles? As far as i understand you cannot cure or grow out of a dsd.

A lack of normal external male genitalia does not make their sex ambiguous. XY chromosomes, testes and virilisation males them unequivocally male.

Males with 5-ARD have internal testicles from birth even though their external genitals may be ambiguous or female-like.

And they become less ambiguous with age. As mentioned previously, there is an area in the Dominican Republic where the condition is common enough to have a name: güevedoces - "penis at twelve".

who I believe was subjected to checks on genitalia as a teen to “prove” they weren’t male

Where did this nugget come from? If they were subject to any serious checks at that point, they would certainly have been found to be male.

There’s a definite “XY = male”, narrative on this thread, and not just relevant to sport.

Because it's 99% true, with the only really exception being CAIS, who are not subject to these rules anyway, and are allowed to compete in the female classification unrestricted.

For all the individuals and DSDs in question, they are unambiguously male. The fact they were male may have been hard to detect at birth, as the only obvious visual indication at that point is genitals, and that's where the development issue is, but a man with malformed genitals is still a man, just as a human with a malformed arm is still a human.

“I will not refer to Mboma as female because of a medical clerical error or to “be kind”

Yes. The reason for excluding Mboma is because they are male. That is the reason. We have to be able to say it. Just as we have to be able to say it for transwomen.

Male. Male. Male. Male. Male. That is the reason. I'm sorry if saying it is not "kind", but trying to enter female sports as a male is not "kind" either.

It's an unkind reaction to an unkind action.

@Reallyreallyborednow

Right, but in Semenya and Mboma's case, there is no ambiguity, is there? There may have been at birth, but not as an adult. They're unambiguously male, they just deny it

I don’t know. Do they have normal male genitalia and XY chromosomes? Can a child born with genitalia ambiguous enough to be thought female at birth and throughout childhood, and who I believe was subjected to checks on genitalia as a teen to “prove” they weren’t male suddenly grow a normal penis and testicles? As far as i understand you cannot cure or grow out of a dsd.

Physical examinations of athletes were last carried out in 1996 at the Atlanta Olympics.

Semenya was born in 1991.

Yes, the reason Semenya and others appeared was because sex testing had stopped. After physical examinations, genetic tests in the form of cheek swabs were used, then those too were stopped (in 1999 - had to read some appallingly misleading articles to find that fact, but I hope they got that right).

And that no-routine-sex-screening environment was what enabled Semenya and the other 800m runners to establish a career.

www.nature.com/articles/gim2000258.pdf?origin=ppub

This is a good article NecessaryScene (only a pdf though). It’s where I got the stats about CAIS. See table 1. 3 out of 3387 athletes tested has CAIS, 4 had partial AIS, 1 had 5-ARD. 1 in 423 at Atlanta Olympics.

Good summary of the testing. Huge majority of women favour it, don’t think it’s invasive.

The article I read was as a young athlete in SA she was often asked to “prove” her sex bu opposing teams. Can’t find the article now, but did find this:

www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSTRE58F3HI20090916

“we’ve tried to explain to you the DSD that is relevant to the athletes in question and we’ve offered places where you can read up on it. Please do so, because we’ve answered these questions and you don’t seem to believe us*

You don’t know what my level of education is, thanks. It’s not that I don’t believe anyone, or that I think these people should be in womens sport. Just that ranting about them being male, end of, is wrong, especially when no one here has access to their personal medical history or any real knowledge of how this disorder affect them.

You can have your opinion, i can have mine, which is outside of sport we should be treating these people with respect, and not chanting “man” at them as if we know more about their bodies than they do.

That article is dated 2009, and Semenya would have been aged 18 and post puberty at that point. Semenya set new records in the 800m and 1500m at the African Junior Champs and the testing was done post these records. If the report is true, then yes it does sound humiliating.

However, I’m pretty sure that both Semenya and the team doctor would be aware of Semenya’s primary amenorrhea and it’s likely cause at that point.

Just that ranting about them being male, end of, is wrong,

I was so taken aback to learn that somebody had used that phrase in this thread that I ran a search for it and yours was the only return.

It's an odd characterisation to make of a thread with a fair amount of technical discussion but it's not an unusual style some commenters adopt when describing exchanges or conversations between women, of course. (There is a separate thread about this: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4340754-Mumsnet-invented-a-feminism-that-is-rooted-in-female-experience-Honest )

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

Comments like this. And “this male”, and other derogatory comments stating they are male if they are xy, regardless of having female presenting genitalia.

Male. Male. Male. Male. Male. That is the reason. I'm sorry if saying it is not "kind"

derogatory comments stating they are male

"Male" is not derogatory. I'm male, and it's fine to be male, I assure you.

And I'd still be male if there was something wrong with my genitalia. A freak penis accident is not going to turn me into a woman.

Mboma and Semenya have not more reason to be upset with being called male than me. We're all male because we are male.

If I didn't want to be male, then tough. (And I don't particularly want to be male! I have no strong preference. But it's what I got.)

What do you think I should say about them? That they're female? But that's not true. That they're neither male nor female? Also not true, and something many people with DSDs (not trying to enter women's sports) find offensive.

Two athletes, same age, same coach, same country, same 46XY DSD.
How coincidental is that?
The Namibian Olympic Committee has stated that neither of these athletes is intersex, despite the fact that the World Athletics rules specifically apply to athletes with XY DSD's.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Masilingi

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Mboma

"Male" is not derogatory. I'm male, and it's fine to be male, I assure you

Presumably you aren’t a male with a dsd though. And no, male isn’t derogatory, the way it is used is though.

Mboma and semenya were raised and socialised female due to their dsd. Of course they have a reason to be upset. I take it you don’t know any individuals with a dsd? It’s life changing and very difficult when you find out you aren’t what you thought you were.

We can have a discussion around dsd’s in sport and advantages it may confer without pointing and shouting “male” until everyone else agrees. I don’t know what the terms are- but like downs, autism or any other disorder surely it’s up the affected individual to dictate how they should be referred to.

We can have a discussion around dsd’s in sport and advantages it may confer without pointing and shouting “male” until everyone else agrees

That's a repeat of your characterisation of this discussion or more widely?

If it's the former, it's up to you to perform a thematic analysis of this thread plus conversational analysis to make out your case.

I see a lot of frustration in this thread and a desire for clarity in terms. It's a complex area and I'm queasy about the discussion of VSDs because it's something that a number of advocates request not to be dragged into political discussions.

This thread is, however, a discussion of something that was anticipated during the Olympics and has now happened. I wonder if that has contributed to some degree of frustration here. Especially given previous discussions about the history of related controversies in sporting competitions, the prior appalling history of sex testing that arose from that, the introduction of new technology and we still find ourselves where we are today.

There is no excuse for the lack of appropriate research within this area nor the absence of an ethical framework within which it could have been conducted. It buttresses the feeling that the various sporting bodies and oversight organisations have never treated women's sports and competitions with the respect that they accord the men's.

All of the athletic associations to which these athletes belong know the sex of these athletes and know that they have undergone a normal male puberty. They are the ones responsible for exposing these athletes' medical conditions to the world. It is cynical exploitation and they should be penalised for it.

I'm sure they are upset. But why is the upset of a few male individuals allowed to be of so much more importance than the upset of the probably thousands of female athletes who have lost out along the wya. Not only olympic medals, money, sponsorship, records, but also national selection.

Is there a girl from a poor background somewhere in Namibia who has lost out to Mboma? Of course there is. A girl who might have won a schools event, who might have got better coaching, who might have been provided with running shoes and travel expenses to enable her to improve her times and maybe get to the Olympics.

All countries want Olympic representation. Why would Namibia support female athletes when there are male athletes who have a better chance of winning, and coaches who are willing to search those male athletes out?