Christine Mboma wins Diamond League 200m

[NotBadConsidering]

Christine Mboma is male. Shericka Jackson 2nd. Dina Asher-Smith came 3rd.

www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/58442621

Obviously no mention of the controversy around a male sex person running in women’s athletics by the brief summary by the BBC .

Previous thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4312328-Female-Namibian-runners-change-events-due-to-too-high-testosterone

At each series the prize money is as follows:

www.diamondleague.com/rules/

1st 10,000 USD
2nd 6000
3rd 3500

Allowing this male to continue to run is costing women thousands of dollars each time .

I’m afraid that whilst feminism does centre women and girls, it fiercely discards the rest of humanity.

"Fiercely discards"? Seems weird. But even then, so what?

It's not feminism's job to be the centrist decision maker doing the compromises between all competing interests.

It's feminism's job to represent women's interests to the decision makers.

The governing bodies (or governments, courts, etc) are there to make sure the rest of humanity is not "discarded".

If feminists don't fight clearly for women, no-one else will.

Christine Mbomba, whilst having male chromosomes, is not a fully sexually mature male, due to DSD

Mbomba is a fully mature male. Maybe not "sexually mature" in that they may not be able to reproduce, but they've undergone complete male puberty, and you do not play sport with your genitals. Why would you think a genital issue would impair performance in any way? What evidence do you have that lack of penis makes you a slower runner?

You're making bold assertions here that don't smell right in a common sense test.

Christine Mbomba, whilst having male chromosomes, is not a fully sexually mature male, due to DSD

Some individuals with 5-ARD have fathered children though, what do you mean by not “sexually mature”? They can still make sperm in their internal testes.

Their external genitalia not forming properly doesn’t make them “between male and female” - it makes them men whose genitals haven’t formed properly, although again there will have been further virilisation at puberty. There is not a single part of their body that is female.

between male and female

Oh, right, I'd missed that. Yes, Pendhxa, you do have a fundamental misconception here. You do go and need to look into this further.

"Intersex" is an appallingly bad model for the conditions we're talking about. Mbomba is not "less male" than other males. Mbomba just has a development disorder that happens to be in the genitals, and that cosmetically may have misled people into thinking they were female at birth.

Mbomba is basically as male as a man who happened to be born without one arm. The defect just happens to be in the genitals instead. That defect is far less relevant to sport than a missing arm would be.

It’s worth repeating that intersex ppl (a term many ppl with DSD hugely dislike) are nor a mysterious third sex, they are still either male or female

@NotBadConsidering totally with you on this

Asher-Smith should have the silver medal. Unless the incumbent in that position is also male, in which case the Gold is hers by true right.

It is always surprising, when going by history it shouldn't be, that the people who come on MN to scold us are usually really poorly informed about the facts. That comes when you make arguments based mostly on emotion.

@Pendhxa

I’m afraid that whilst feminism does centre women and girls, it fiercely discards the rest of humanity. Intersex people are precisely as the name suggests - between male and female. Christine Mbomba, whilst having male chromosomes, is not a fully sexually mature male, due to DSD, and it clearly isn’t as simple as saying “go in the male category”. There needs to be a category for these athletes and in my view, the creation of this category and the rectification of women’s sports are something that go hand in hand in the interests of fairness and decency for all - women and DSD athletes.

Nope.

You have posted that utter claptrap on a site where DSD has been discussed, in depth, by many posters, including a few with DSDs.

We know that your initial premise is unscientific, outdated hogwash that people with DSD find offensive.

Go away.

Do some research.

Come back and apologise for your uneducated blathering.

Maybe then we can discuss the situation in a meaningful manner.

The only athletic categories which are protected are age related, disability specific and the female category. This means that the men's category is actually open to all and to access the other categories you have to prove that you meet the criteria. No one would allow a sighted athlete to compete against blind athletes in the Paralympics or a fourteen year old boy in the under 13s. So ,if you don't meet the criteria ,you simply don't compete in a protected category , you compete in the open category.

This means that the men's category is actually open to all

This is one of those factoids that's only partially true.

Quite often "men's" things are actually open, but they tend to be things run by a body that doesn't do female categories. Things like NBA or NHL in America. They're open.

But where one body does both male and female things, like the Olympics, or the FA, they've often written the rules symmetrically, so men's is not open.

I suspect this was not really a particularly thought-through conscious decision in either case.

But your broad point is correct - the justification for the male/female separation is to protect females, even if it's not written that way.

[quote AnyFucker]@NotBadConsidering totally with you on this

Asher-Smith should have the silver medal. Unless the incumbent in that position is also male, in which case the Gold is hers by true right.[/quote]
The woman who came second is a Jamaican woman. The Diamond League is where the money is in athletics, rather than medals. 10,000 USD for winning. Caster Semenya won 21 Diamond League meets throughout Semenya’s career .

Christine Mbomba, whilst having male chromosomes, is not a fully sexually mature male, due to DSD

Mboma is male in all the ways that matter for sport. A male without fully formed external genitalia is still a male.

and it clearly isn’t as simple as saying “go in the male category”

Yes it is, unless you’re a Namibian official who sees a way to bring glory to your country.

There needs to be a category for these athletes

Not really, but they can sort this out for themselves without taking from women in the interim

and in my view, the creation of this category and the rectification of women’s sports are something that go hand in hand in the interests of fairness and decency for all - women and DSD athletes.

It’s not the job of women to sort out the place for DSD athletes. If these issues went hand in hand then Caster Semenya wouldn’t have been allowed to compete against women for 10 years. Let other people sort it out.

@Pendhxa

This does need to be addressed but I think it's uncalled for to refer to Christine Mboma as "this male". She certainly was thought to be female at birth and until puberty (and beyond perhaps and now?) lived as a female. I imagine that she considers herself female due to the above two points. I do understand that she likely has male chromosomes but she did not develop into a sexually mature male due hormone insensitivity. I do think there should be categories made for athletes in this situation as she has clearly put in the training and athletics is her life. I think it would be more constructive to try to work this out without just dismissing someone like Christine as "this male". The current situation is definitely unfair to female athletes so it needs addressing urgently, but sensitively and kindly. Because Christine did not choose to be born with this condition.

Yes, of course. Let's put men's feeling before women's rights. Mbona can consider himself whatever he likes but the reality of the situation is that Mbona is male and has deprived a woman of her rightful place on the podium.

Mboma & Beatrice Masilingi, Namibia’s 2 DSD athletes, are both only 18 years old. If this isn’t resolved soon they have the potential to dominate women’s sport for years.

Just to add, Mboma has only recently switched to 200m after becoming ineligible to run the 400m due to testosterone levels.

I was watching the BBC coverage with my mouth hanging open at all the gaslighting going on. The commentator not once mentioning that the athletes were biologically male, just that they were 'subject to rulings over excess testosterone'. Expressing amazement that they were able to change distance and after only 4 races still beat female athletes who had been training for years for the 1500. It was shocking.

Men should not be allowed in women's athletics - at any distance.

And here's Athletics Weekly's coverage:

Mboma, who had to step down to 200m due to World Athletics’ rules relating to naturally high testosterone levels in women, said: “It was my first Diamond League experience and to be able to win in such a strong field is great.

More gaslighting!!!

and

A few years ago Francine Niyonsaba would have looked to have run the 800m but now she is showing her future is in the longer distances.

Yes, because she's been TOLD she has to move to longer distances as she has a DSD!! She is biologically male!

FFS, what epically shit reporting.

Mboma grew up in Shinyungwe, a village in the Kavango East region of Namibia, as the eldest of three daughters.[9] She was abandoned by her father as a baby, and her mother Patricia died in 2016 while giving birth, leaving Christine to take care of her younger siblings.[9] She took up athletics in 2017.[9] Wikipedia

Mboma is only 18 now, so has been raising their younger sisters since the age of 13. It's not surprising that success in the Diamond League would be seen as salvation for the whole family. Anyone of that age and with that background is unlikely to be aware of the bigger picture, or even to have understood that they were not just a girl who happened to be very very good at running.

The Namibian sports authorities understood though. They have cynically exploited this young person. I feel desperately sorry for Christine Mboma.

The bottom line is that no one who has been through male puberty should ever be allowed to compete in women's sports. If that hard and fast rule was applied it would prevent this exploitation of young boys with DSDs.

Jackson and Asher-Smith have been robbed, like Lesley Sharp and countless others before them. This keeps happening. Corrupt scouts are now actively searching for young people with DSDs because there are rich pickings to be made there.

They don't even have to be great athletes. Most teenage boys will easily beat elite women.

But equally I think people like Christine Mbomba deserve an appropriate category to compete in.

There is a category for people who have experienced a male puberty. The male category is open to all comers who qualify in them for athletics and other sports, it's the female one that is contingent.

It's not surprising that success in the Diamond League would be seen as salvation for the whole family.

Yes, I can imagine it would mean a lot to them.

But then it would also mean a lot to thousands of actual women in similar situations who would have to compete fairly to do the same thing.

If you're "nice" to Mbomba, you're potentially dashing the hopes of thousands of similar families - no female child could dream of making money for their family as a sportswoman in a world where female sports are male-dominated.

I'm not disagreeing Necessary. I'm just saving my ire for the sporting organisations.

It’s grossly unfair and unfairly sanctioned by the sports authorities.

The women’s category should be single sex.

Out of curiosity, what is it that triggers an athlete being tested for DSD/VSD? Does it happen routinely to anyone who wants to compete at a certain level, or does it get flagged up if an individual’s performance seems to be outstripping their peers to the extent that natural talent isn’t enough of an explanation?

Francine Niyonsaba only just swithced to longer events this year. At the Olympics she was disqualified in the 5,000m heats for a lane infringement and finished 5th in the 10,000m. Since then she has won several races against top class opposition, running the second fastest time ever by a woman at two-miles, the fifth fastest ever at 3,000m and the 16th fastest ever at 5,000m. Given that Niyonsaba is still improving we can expect to her winning many more races.

Of course, if things were different she - and others - would have been in the 800m in Tokyo and we wouldn't be celebrating the amazing achievement of Keeley Hodginkson.