Christine Mboma wins Diamond League 200m

[NotBadConsidering]

Christine Mboma is male. Shericka Jackson 2nd. Dina Asher-Smith came 3rd.

www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/58442621

Obviously no mention of the controversy around a male sex person running in women’s athletics by the brief summary by the BBC .

Previous thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4312328-Female-Namibian-runners-change-events-due-to-too-high-testosterone

At each series the prize money is as follows:

www.diamondleague.com/rules/

1st 10,000 USD
2nd 6000
3rd 3500

Allowing this male to continue to run is costing women thousands of dollars each time .

It’s not entirely clear how these athletes are flagged for testing, but rapid ascent in the teenage years is a flag, according to Ross Tucker. But how it is initiated is a bit of a mystery. Presumably someone from World Athletics has to have that first conversation.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn thatnsome countries were actively scouting for them.

As far as I’m aware, all athletes are tested for the usual banned substances. Testosterone is a banned substance so will be flagged up in the tests taken from female athletes. At that point the athlete in question will be either be chromosomally tested to figure out if the T levels is high or will be charged with doping if they’ve been using T as a performance enhancing drug.

Yes, of course, the testosterone will be in the normal male range. On account of the presence of testes.

Mboma also intends to try the 100m races in 1-2 years, in addition to the 200m.
By the next Olympics they could be taking gold in both events.

Mboma is only 18 now, so has been raising their younger sisters since the age of 13. It's not surprising that success in the Diamond League would be seen as salvation for the whole family. Anyone of that age and with that background is unlikely to be aware of the bigger picture, or even to have understood that they were not just a girl who happened to be very very good at running.

The Namibian sports authorities understood though. They have cynically exploited this young person. I feel desperately sorry for Christine Mboma.

I agree BoreOfWhabylon. I watched a whole range of interviews given by these young athletes talking about their experiences, with a focus on what happened after the Caster story broke.

A common thread is that they were getting tested by their national athletics bodies, but not told why. They had no understanding of the medical issues or the unfairness issues. (To be fair, the level of schooling of the athletes I watched being interviewed would make that difficult.)

One said she didn't really mind or care about the testing (at 17), as long as they let her keep running. Running is their life. It's their ticket out of poverty. From their perspective, this is all deeply unfair and there's shame involved, too, in having their medical conditions publicly debated.

They also suffer from being tarred with the same brush as Caster, who was reportedly not raised as a girl (or at least now seems to prefer presenting in a masculine way).

Many people misunderstand the issues people with DSDs have with their assigned sex, especially for conditions typically missed at birth in developing countries but typically identified at birth in developed ones. Thanks to the concerted efforts of trans rights activists, they now equate the experience of someone with a DSD who was assigned one sex at birth who then goes on to find that assignment does not fit them with the self-identification of someone who is unequivocally male or female who nonetheless wishes to be seen as the other sex.

So they look at Caster and see someone self-identifying into female sports, who otherwise presents and behaves as male and think this is the same issue.

It's not and Caster isn't lying but struggling with living with a DSD. And it's unfair, too, to assume that all of the athletes with that DSD are like Caster. Many of them continue to present and "live as" women.

None of the above means they should be allowed to continue competing in women's sports after their condition is diagnosed.

And that responsibility falls to the national sports bodies. They say no to athletes all the time. They need to say no now.

Running is their life. It's their ticket out of poverty…

Yes - it's a ticket out of poverty that is now being denied to women who would otherwise be competitive in this class. It's denying the rightful earnings and sponsorships to those women and it has an unquantifiable impact on the ambitions of young women for whom this would otherwise be an avenue.

Many people misunderstand the issues people with DSDs have with their assigned sex, especially for conditions typically missed at birth in developing countries but typically identified at birth in developed ones.

Agreed. I don't recall the number of people born with DSDs for whom there is any degree of ambiguity but it is very small:

we have to drill down into what the meaning of the word “intersex” is. Most people think of hermaphrodites. Let’s stress at the beginning, there has been no example ever of a human being with both sets of working reproductive organs. There is a very tiny percentage of people who are born with both testicular and ovarian tissue (what Fausto-Sterling calls “true hermaphrodites”). And when I say tiny, we’re talking intersex tiny, as in 0.0117/1,000 livebirths, or one in 100,000. These are very complex cases, but still not actual hermaphrodites. [cont.]

Claire G covers CAIS and other relevant topics.

mrkhvoice.com/index.php/2019/05/12/statistics-and-semantics-is-intersex-as-common-as-red-heads/

None of the above means they should be allowed to continue competing in women's sports after their condition is diagnosed.

And that responsibility falls to the national sports bodies. They say no to athletes all the time. They need to say no now.

Sums it up so well.

Yes, of course, the testosterone will be in the normal male range. On account of the presence of testes

I can’t find that mboma’s testosterone results have been published. Do you have a link?

I can’t find that mboma’s testosterone results have been published. Do you have a link?

Mboma has been barred from competing in the DSD-restricted events, which means testosterone level of 5nmol/l or higher, which is within normal male range.

So we're more certain of Mboma having normal male testosterone levels than any of the men in the men's events.

What a disaster. So many women aiming to be the best at their sport, looking at these results seeing that there is a barrier in the way that they can never overcome. While Caster Semenya was the most visible, the 800m podium in Rio was occupied by three runners with XY chromosomes and the rulings restricting their access to the 800m and 1500m events has simply permitted these young athletes to compete in the shorter and longer distances.

Bye bye female records... we will gradually blur the lines, erase the evidence, silence the questions and move quietly on to a different world where sex is no longer the determining factor as to who enters the competitions and the face of female athletics will change forever.

Mboma has been barred from competing in the DSD-restricted events, which means testosterone level of 5nmol/l or higher, which is within normal male range

No, normal male is about 9-30 nmol/l.

The 5 mmol/l is the level it must be under to compete in female competition.

The 5 mmol/l is the level it must be under to compete in female competition.

Oops, getting my thresholds slightly muddled. But IAAF's documents used 7.7 as the lower male bound.

But still, there's no reason to suspect Mboma's testosterone is not in normal male levels. Lower-than-normal testosterone levels is not a symptom of 5-ARD, and if they were naturally low, getting down to 5 nmol/l would not be a big deal for them.

Lower-than-normal testosterone levels is not a symptom of 5-ARD, and if they were naturally low, getting down to 5 nmol/l would not be a big deal for them.

I know there's been discussion in previous threads about testosterone testing and how it is susceptible to a number of testing factors including timing.

Yes, I've not been convinced that any sort of testosterone limit could be meaningfully enforced.

And I do have some recollection that some male athletes had been found to have bizarrely low testosterone levels. Possibly due to recent doping?

Isn't it strange, how Francine Niyonsaba and Christine Mboma have both had a "meteorite rise to fame" in whichever events they run?
It is almost as if they posess some magical quality which the other women lack.
I hope at some stage the IOC and IAF see sense and stop these athletes competing in the women's category.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francine_Niyonsaba

www.letsrun.com/news/2021/09/2021-brussels-dl-recap-dsd-athletes-francine-niyonsaba-christine-mboma-earn-big-wins-sifan-hassan-scares-the-mile-world-record/

"She had a quick rise to prominence in 2012 while still a teenager. The first time she set the record was in late June 2012 while narrowly winning the 2012 African Championships in Athletics in 1:59.11 in what was only her third competitive race. At that, she improved upon her own previous national record of 2:02.13, set in the qualifying round. In the opening round race, the inexperienced runner had opened up a 30 meters lead the pack"

I have to say, Mboma's technique is possibly the worst I have seen from an elite athlete, but they are winning because of their sheer power.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Mboma

@NecessaryScene

Yes, I've not been convinced that any sort of testosterone limit could be meaningfully enforced.

And I do have some recollection that some male athletes had been found to have bizarrely low testosterone levels. Possibly due to recent doping?

Taking additional testosterone will suppress natural testosterone production, and that will take some time to return to normal levels after you've stopped taking it, so recent doping could lead to low levels. I don't know if microdosing regimes would lead to a similar drop in levels after stopping doping as they wouldn't raise the levels as much. Taking oestrogen will also suppress testosterone levels (but not usually enough to be under the limit for competition). Overtraining can also cause lower levels as far as I know. Various medical problems would lower testosterone levels, but you'd be likley to get other symptoms as well.

I agree, technically they are awful.

Is there any evidence that athletes such as Mboma and Semenya with VSDs have elements of their condition which mean they will never be able to compete on a level playing field with men?

NecessaryScene

The very reason that Mboma and Niyonsaba are restricted to certain events, is because they have far higher testosterone levels than women and have refused to have medication to lower those levels.
The fact that the IOC/IAF have allowed them to compete at all in the women's category shows how corrupt and deluded they are.

Middlesexgirl not biologically, the tricky part is they have birth certificates that state their sex is female.

Is there any evidence that athletes such as Mboma and Semenya with VSDs have elements of their condition which mean they will never be able to compete on a level playing field with men?

We discussed this a bit above. Educated guess around here is no, but I don't think there's been any specific research.

I've not even seen a mechanism proposed for reduced athletic performance. I've found nothing suggesting it in my reading on 5-ARD. Eg Wikipedia (emphasis mine):

At the time of puberty however, they develop striking phenotypically masculine secondary sexual characteristics including partial virilization of the genitals (enlargement of the phallus into a near-functional penis and descent of the testes), voice deepening, typical male musculoskeletal development, and no menstruation, breast development, or other signs of feminization that occur during female puberty.

The fact that the IOC/IAF have allowed them to compete at all in the women's category shows how corrupt and deluded they are.

World Athletics (formerly IAAF - I just looked that up to check) have been trying to keep them out generally. It was the court of arbitration that demanded specific proof of them having advantages in female sports. They were only able to provide it for Semenya et al's distances.

They should now be able to provide it for these distances, but how long will it take? And why on earth is the court of arbitration demanding this?

As a WA representative rather pithily said:

'World Athletics has in fact done a longitudinal study comparing performance of biologically female and biologically male athletes, which we call the world records.'

@CurrantTeacake

Middlesexgirl not biologically, the tricky part is they have birth certificates that state their sex is female.

In the UK corrections can be made to birth certificates (including changing the 'gender') so this would not seem to be an insurmountable obstacle. I'm just wondering why these athletes would be disadvantaged by competing against men. I wouldn't wish to deny them opportunity but if there's no evidence that they wouldn't, if talented enough and with the right training, be able to compete with men, then surely that is where they should be competing. I'm assuming it would be harder to apply the same logic to transgender athletes as they will have experienced a diminution in athletic capability? (I realise the IOC/CAIS/IAAF are not applying the logic anywhere yet ..... just musing).

As a WA representative rather pithily said:

'World Athletics has in fact done a longitudinal study comparing performance of biologically female and biologically male athletes, which we call the world records.'