Christine Mboma wins Diamond League 200m

[NotBadConsidering]

Christine Mboma is male. Shericka Jackson 2nd. Dina Asher-Smith came 3rd.

www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/58442621

Obviously no mention of the controversy around a male sex person running in women’s athletics by the brief summary by the BBC .

Previous thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4312328-Female-Namibian-runners-change-events-due-to-too-high-testosterone

At each series the prize money is as follows:

www.diamondleague.com/rules/

1st 10,000 USD
2nd 6000
3rd 3500

Allowing this male to continue to run is costing women thousands of dollars each time .

I'm assuming it would be harder to apply the same logic to transgender athletes as they will have experienced a diminution in athletic capability?

As Linda Blade indicates in her book, the assumption was based on Harper's self-report study of 8 non-elite athletes.

There's been no support for Harper's assertions from the academic reviews of evidence conducted by researchers or knowledgeable sports commentators.

Even Harper's more recent research confirms the increasing amount of evidence in this area which shows that any loss of sports performance after MtF transition is minimal at most.

Margaret Wambui has called for a third category in athletics
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/africa/57239439

"We would be the first people to compete in that category - so we can motivate others who are hiding their condition," she said.

"We could show them that it is not their fault, that this is how they were created, and that they've done nothing wrong."

Margaret Wambui has called for a third category in athletics

Interesting call that would solve a need if they could persuade the various sponsors and governing bodies to put their money where their mouths are. It would, of course, be pretty much exclusively a category that is for very restricted numbers of people with VSD and predominantly one sex. I'm not aware of any reason why people who have experienced a natural male puberty can not compete in the open class (aka known as male) in most athletics or other categories but I am open to persuasion based on useful evidence.

It wouldn't resolve the issue around other groups who wish to compete in women's categories but that is no more the responsibility of athletes with VSD to resolve than it is women's responsibility.

I'm not aware of any reason why people who have experienced a natural male puberty can not compete in the open class (aka known as male) in most athletics or other categories but I am open to persuasion based on useful evidence

Do we know that those with a dsd experience “natural male puberty”? Surely if they have some sort of hormone or genetic issue that means testosterone doesn’t have the usual effect in utero/childhood and they don’t develop male genitalia, then why would it suddenly behave as normal throughout and after puberty?

This is what I don’t quite grasp, people seem to be saying that these individuals have a disorder that means they don’t produce or respond to testosterone so don’t develop normal male genitalia, but then somehow at puberty they turn into “normal” males with normal testosterone and react to testosterone the same as any other male.

I don’t think a third sex category is the answer.

Do we know that those with a dsd experience “natural male puberty”?

The DSD these athletes have (5-ARD) means they don’t respond to the type of testosterone that triggers male genital development hence they are born with ambiguous or female looking genitals however that type of testosterone (I think it’s DHT but could be misremembered) is not part of puberty therefore these males will still respond as normal.

I’m not a scientist so I could have got the details wrong but trying to remember Carole Hooven’s excellent explanation in her book.

'World Athletics has in fact done a longitudinal study comparing performance of biologically female and biologically male athletes, which we call the world records.'

And the wholly incredible women's word records from 100m to 800m, all set in the 80s by nailed-on drug cheats, speaks volumes about the natural performance envelope of female athletes.

Do we know that those with a dsd experience “natural male puberty”? Surely if they have some sort of hormone or genetic issue that means testosterone doesn’t have the usual effect in utero/childhood and they don’t develop male genitalia, then why would it suddenly behave as normal throughout and after puberty?

The 46XY DSD disorder 5-ARD that Semenya and Mboma suffer from is quite specific. They're deficient in DHT (dihydrotestosterone) which is important to forming the reproductive system/genitalia correctly during early development.

From my reading, DHT does not have much impact on the rest of the body, so aside from genitalia, they are standard males.

They never had any problem with normal testosterone, so when production of that ramps up in puberty, it has all the usual effects. And part of those effects is to develop the genitalia, which means they become more obviously male as the penis develops further. And they get the usual male athletic performance.

Wikipedia:

Many SRD5A2 mutations come from areas of with high coefficients of inbreeding including the Dominican Republic (where people with the condition are called güevedoces - "penis at twelve")

This is what I don’t quite grasp, people seem to be saying that these individuals have a disorder that means they don’t produce or respond to testosterone so don’t develop normal male genitalia,

That would be an accurate description of a different 46XY DSD - CAIS - complete androgen insensitivity syndrome.

Those individuals do what you surmise - they do not undergo male puberty, and have more clearly female genitalia. And they are permitted to compete in the female category.

In people with 46XY DSDs, the fault is that when the genitals are developing in utero, the specific cells responsible for that development don’t respond to the androgens, so they don’t form correctly at that point. Depending on the disorder, the other functions that androgens/testosterone serve operate correctly, so all the rest of the development is along a much more standard male pathway.

I don’t want to be unkind to the individual athletes, but they don’t qualify for the women’s events. It’s brave of Wambui to speak out, but I don’t think a third category is the answer. The appropriate space is the male category, but if the athletes aren’t competitive in that, then that is just the luck of the draw, in the same way that there aren’t a lot of 5 foot basketball players. That said, I have no objection if either athletes with DSDs or short basketball fans want to set out on their own, it’s just not something that I personally would prioritise.

I should refresh while I’m reading a thread right from the start so I don’t do what I’ve just done, which is think that I’ll be the first to answer the last post I saw

That would be an accurate description of a different 46XY DSD - CAIS - complete androgen insensitivity syndrome.

Those individuals do what you surmise - they do not undergo male puberty, and have more clearly female genitalia. And they are permitted to compete in the female category.

Good summary.

There's been a fair amount of confusion for some time because of the confusion of CAIS with partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (there are previous threads that discuss this topic in some detail).

There's been a fair amount of confusion for some time because of the confusion of CAIS with partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (there are previous threads that discuss this topic in some detail)

The posters who are adamant that XY = man regardless of phenotype confuse things as well. It’s clearly not, in cases of DSD.

some extra context

Christine Mboma didn't just win, she beat Dina Asher-Smith's lifetime best (set when winning the 2019 World Championships).

Mboma is seven years younger than Asher-Smith

From my reading, DHT does not have much impact on the rest of the body, so aside from genitalia, they are standard males

It is a cause of hair loss in males - DHT binds to hair follicles and weakens them. Mboma won’t go bald.

It is a cause of hair loss in males - DHT binds to hair follicles and weakens them. Mboma won’t go bald.

Yes, I did notice that while skimming the article. Forgot to mention it :)

Still don't think it merits a separate sports category

Actually one thing I was thinking about - it is actually perfectly possible that we've already had a 5-ARD athlete competing in the male division, maybe very successfully.

For all we know, maybe 5-ARD actually enhances male performance. Perhaps Michael Phelps not only has big feet, he also has 5-ARD, which means no hair loss, and a slight competitive edge.

If a 5-ARD athlete like Mboma or Semenya competed in the male category, there's no reason the fact they had a DSD would ever become public.

The posters who are adamant that XY = man regardless of phenotype confuse things as well. It’s clearly not, in cases of DSD.

But it clearly is, in nearly every single DSD. Only CAIS and Swyer syndrome make it not obviously the case.

There is nothing phenotypical about Mboma that is female or makes Mboma a woman. The only thing is the F on the birth certificate.

There’s a whole section of the Semenya CAS ruling that focuses on the effects of DHT or its absence. The court ruled its absence doesn’t negate the positive effects of testosterone.

We don’t 100% know Mboma has 5-ARD by the way.

Even in CAIS there is confused evidence. Yes, the people with CAIS don't benefit completely from male puberty as they don't respond to testosterone in the same way as men (as in XY men) do. However, there is some evidence they can be taller, they have different hip alignment, there are differences in heart size and muscle twitch. So it's not a matter of "it's fair that they compete with women", but more a matter of "they couldn't compete with men".

We don't know if people with CAIS are winning medals in women's categories because the IOC doesn't release that information. Which, while being fair to those with CAIS may not be fair to the women who compete against them. It is possible that exceptional elite XX people are being beaten by mediocre XY people with CAIS, we don't know.

TurquoiseBubbles, that is a very interesting point. And I am glad that the well-informed posters here are being assertive about the very unambiguous facts of this case. The IOC is completely clear on the various conditions it includes and excludes in its rulings. The athletes that it excludes from 400 and 800 m races if they do not restrict their testosterone are males with DSDs, not females, and their testosterone levels are equal to those of healthy males.

And only some males with DSDs are excluded. Some are allowed to run, for example if they have low enough testosterone levels, either naturally (CAIS) or artificial (by taking the contraceptive pill).

I have no idea why a simple XY vs XX ruling doesn't apply in this day and age where chromosomes can be assessed by a simple cheek swab with no need for the invasive and embarrassing "genital inspections" that were quite understandably hated in the 60s/70s.

Though it seems many women athletes were willing to undergo those invasive tests to ensure fairness, whereas the current XY athletes aren't even willing to take a cheek swab (or at least unwilling to accept the results of such a swab) to ensure fairness.

@TurquoiseBaubles

Even in CAIS there is confused evidence. Yes, the people with CAIS don't benefit completely from male puberty as they don't respond to testosterone in the same way as men (as in XY men) do. However, there is some evidence they can be taller, they have different hip alignment, there are differences in heart size and muscle twitch. So it's not a matter of "it's fair that they compete with women", but more a matter of "they couldn't compete with men".

We don't know if people with CAIS are winning medals in women's categories because the IOC doesn't release that information. Which, while being fair to those with CAIS may not be fair to the women who compete against them. It is possible that exceptional elite XX people are being beaten by mediocre XY people with CAIS, we don't know.

I have brought this up before too. At the Olympics when sex chromosome testing was done, 1992, 1996 etc, the rate of CAIS was found to be 1 in 1000 athletes in women’s competition, compared to a population rate estimated between 1 in 20,000 to 1 in 60,000.

So seemingly much more prevalent, but not conclusive because the overall numbers were too low to apply statistical significance. There needs to be a much bigger collection of data plus breakdown of events. It may be, for example, that only 1 in 20,000 marathon runners in women’s competition are CAIS, but 50% of high jumpers or pole vaulters are CAIS.

Personally I suspect it confers a skeletal advantage, and data would help understand more, but there’s no chance of a CAIS athlete being excluded due to the optics of such a case before the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

I have sympathy for any individual exploited by a ruthless national authority, up to the point that individual knows their ongoing participation in a female sporting category is unfair due to their genetic makeup.

But as a PP said, I’m afraid I don’t care very much whether any male individual with a DSD would be competitive in the male category. Elite sport is by definition exclusive, and some of the things it excludes by are health and body type. Them’s the breaks. I’ll never do gymnastics like Simone Biles or box like Nicola Adams but I’m not demanding the rules be changed to make me competitive against them.

Women’s sport is not a consolation prize for men who can’t cut it in their own category, regardless of the reason.

I think it’s not beyond the wit of the relevant committees to figure out some sort of grandfathering clause or prospective application of new rules to phase out athletes with unfair advantages due to DSDs without unduly penalising those currently adhering to a system that has allowed this. The political will would have to be there, though, and to start that off we’d have to have the press and the national sporting bodies telling the truth about what’s happening and stop all of this “woman with high natural testosterone” double speak.

We also need good research being done, but again that is being impeded politically, because the national sporting bodies won’t give up their current advantages without a fight.

@notbadconsidering Thank you so much for this information about people with CAIS. I had no idea, and I try to learn all about this kind of stuff. That information about the pole vaulting is just jaw dropping.

The pole vaulters isn’t a fact, it was just an example of how we need better data of whether CAIS is over-represented in sport as a whole or specific events. At the moment we know it’s over-represented, but only based on small numbers at Olympics a while ago.