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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

16 yo DS called me a TERF

104 replies

Skatastic · 27/08/2021 09:12

He (formally she) came our as trans at the beginning of the year and we've done everything we can to support this. We call him his preferred pronouns, use his preferred name, listen to his woes.

Had a massive argument with him the other day and he called me a TERF. Other highlights were that when I said I don't want to be described as CIS I'm transphobic.

Another massive argument yesterday because I said I don't believe the 'trans women are women' rhetoric. He said well you don't believe I'm a man do you then? And the problem is no, I don't. I think he has serious mental health problems and this has all got tied up in trans stuff.

What the very fuck do I say? Is there a good way to say it? Why is he so fucking self righteous about it? Told me I can't have experienced any difficulties cos I'm a woman. Riiggghhhhtttt I must have dreamed those sexual assaults, sexism at work, being overlooked for promotions because I had to have time off for poorly children (him being one of them, oh the irony).

Not sure what I'm asking for. Solidarity?

OP posts:
Abhannmor · 27/03/2024 11:26

IcakethereforeIam · 27/03/2024 09:42

If she's still reading I hope the OP and their child are in a better place now. Things can change a lot in over 2 years.

This. My friends son 'transitioned ' for about 18 months. New name , pronouns experiments with make up and clothing. His gf broke up with him, rather messily. Then it all stopped. His parents just rolled with it. Nobody saying ' we told you so'.
Life just went on as before....

RedToothBrush · 27/03/2024 11:28

Can he explain why he's NOT being sexist - without losing his temper or using gender stereotypes?

lechiffre55 · 27/03/2024 11:30

Ask him if being trans has fixed his issues why is he still so angry?

JupesLoops · 27/03/2024 13:05

As someone who has been called a TERF (I’m not, I just think we should be able to have open and honest conversations about gender and we should have compassion for those who didn’t grow up in this sort of landscape) this thread is depressing. And full of TERF dog whistles. Just look at how many people are champing at the bit to tell you to show your mentally ill child how right they are. Those people don’t care about you or your child. They just an outlet for their rage. Im genuinely nervous to post this because I think people will. Not. Like.

OP think very carefully about where you’re getting your advice from. There are people in this thread happily encouraging you to abandon your child because they hate (the concept of, idk) trans people.

I’d also be very careful with how sure you are that they aren’t trans. My own mother is certain that I’m not autistic, although she can never explain why, she just feels it in her gut that I’m choosing to be naughty and always have. It’s severely damaged our relationship and my mental health. It’s stopped me from accessing medical care, it’s stopped me from being able to advocate for myself. Ironically she was the one who first came to me saying her therapist had said I sound autistic.

I think as a parent there can be a lot of emotional stuff tied into it, perhaps she feels she failed me by not noticing in childhood and it’s easier to stay in the story of “this child is naughty” because that’s far less painful than “my child needed help and instead I punished them and left them with permanent damage”

our brains do often lie to us to protect ourselves and “I know my child isn’t trans, they’re just sad” is a lot easier to believe than to question your relationship with gender and realise “oh fuck, I’ve spent a year/months undermining my child’s sense of self at a time when they needed me the most”

Also, I’m pretty sure cis is not a gender. Nobody is misgendering anyone. A cis woman is still a woman. A mother is still a mother. Trans people existing doesn’t threaten any of that.

The reception in this thread is exactly what your child is scared of. It’s very likely that they can sense you aren’t on board and they’re intuitively picking up that you feel like you’re humouring them when you’re not deadnaming them etc. they clearly don’t feel like they have full authentic support and that’s quite terrifying to a child.

especially in a society that is seeing continual erosion of trans rights.

women went through a liberation movement. Now we need to support others with theirs.

also, radical feminism is not the same as terf. Frankly most terfs I speak to know nothing of radical feminism and just enjoy the air of legitimacy that the term radical feminism adds to their crusade against trans people.

tldr. Support your child. If you’re right, you’ll still be right when they de transition. If you’re wrong, then you haven’t risked your relationship with your son.

read books about gender yourself. It’s easy to forget how fundamental this fight feels, we’re essentially the men in the feminist debate here. We are the default and part of the status quo. We don’t really understand and need to take steps to do so. From my Goodreads I have “I hope we choose love” and “undoing gender” on my list.

I also think you need to educate your son on feminism. Men are often crap at feminism. Reading as a family can be hard so maybe philosophy tube would be good. Abigail is a trans woman with a philosophy degree who talks wonderfully about feminism. If I was you I’d start with her video on the social contract, they’re beautiful and engaging and I think she could help you and your son find common ground.

This is lol said with love. I hope you and your family find peace.

SinnerBoy · 27/03/2024 13:10

JupesLoops · Today 13:05

OP think very carefully about where you’re getting your advice from. There are people in this thread happily encouraging you to abandon your child because they hate (the concept of, idk) trans people.

That's very much a minority view, of course. Most counsel caution and advised books on how to listen to and speak to teenagers.

JupesLoops · 27/03/2024 13:14

SinnerBoy · 27/03/2024 13:10

JupesLoops · Today 13:05

OP think very carefully about where you’re getting your advice from. There are people in this thread happily encouraging you to abandon your child because they hate (the concept of, idk) trans people.

That's very much a minority view, of course. Most counsel caution and advised books on how to listen to and speak to teenagers.

Doesn’t look that way from where I’m sat.

But hey, that’s the beauty of the internet. We all have different perspectives and we all get to share them.

I’m pretty sure if you took a tally of pro trans vs anti trans comments on this thread you’ll see what I mean.

There’s not much love or support or advocacy. No questioning how the mother can be so certain someone isn’t trans. No questioning if the mother has worked through any bias.

And a lot of agreement that cis is somehow a slur, and the child is somehow being rude by using this term. A lot of falsely equating it to misgendering someone. A whole lot of invalidation.

If I was trans I wouldn’t feel safe and supported here. I wouldn’t want my parents to take this advice. Would you?

DialSquare · 27/03/2024 13:17

IcakethereforeIam · 27/03/2024 09:42

If she's still reading I hope the OP and their child are in a better place now. Things can change a lot in over 2 years.

This.

I'm not sure if recent PP realise this is a zombie thread from 2021.

SinnerBoy · 27/03/2024 13:20

JupesLoops

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Peskysquirrel · 27/03/2024 13:44

I don't think the OP's thread should be used as a sounding board for a whole lot of projection issues, false accusations and untruths. Even if it is a zombie thread.

OP, if you read this, hope things worked themselves out for you.

JupesLoops · 27/03/2024 13:47

Peskysquirrel · 27/03/2024 13:44

I don't think the OP's thread should be used as a sounding board for a whole lot of projection issues, false accusations and untruths. Even if it is a zombie thread.

OP, if you read this, hope things worked themselves out for you.

Is that what I did?

Pretty disheartening that a call for introspection is reduced as an attack or projection.

I’m also curious about what is untrue.

We all need to be better at observing our bias and owning our shit. That’s not an insult.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/03/2024 14:34

OP, this all sounds so very difficult. I am sorry.

I don't have teenagers and I'm not in the same situation so not sure what useful advice I can really give.

I would probably want to say something like this,

"You know I love you deeply and just want you to live your best life and be happy. We don't have to agree or have the same opinions about everything. I use your new name and your preferred pronouns because I love and respect you as a person. Since I am making every effort to refer to you using the language you prefer, I would appreciate it if you could show me the same love and respect by not calling me "cis" or "TERF". The word "cis" implies that I have a gender identity which corresponds to my biological sex. That is not how I feel. For me, the concept of having a gender identity appears to be based on wishing to conform to gender stereotypes associated with masculinity or femininity. I am female but I don't identify with feminine stereotypes or wish to define myself on that basis. Perhaps you and your friends would consider that to be "non binary", but I am more comfortable being referred to as a woman. The word "TERF" is clearly a term of abuse used about women and it makes me very sad to hear you say it, particularly about me. I know I raised you better than that. Let's both agree to behave with love and respect towards each other, and to each treat each other the way we would wish to be treated. I also think it would be a good thing for us to spend more time together doing and talking about things which are unrelated to this issue, which seems to have become somewhat all-consuming. Why don't we [insert activity your child enjoys] together next week?"

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/03/2024 14:35

Just seen this is an old thread. OP if you are still reading, I hope things have worked out for you and your family.

CantDealwithChristmas · 27/03/2024 14:39

My DD called me a TERF, i agreed, thanked her for the compliment and we went about our respective days

WaterWeasel · 27/03/2024 15:17

Hope that your daughter has left all of this behind now OP and that she is a happy young woman.

SkaTastic · 27/03/2024 15:28

"There’s not much love or support or advocacy. No questioning how the mother can be so certain someone isn’t trans. No questioning if the mother has worked through any bias."

I know he's not trans because the first time it came out of his mouth was when COVID hit, everyone got smashed into lockdown and he spent all day looking for a reason as to why he felt so different. I don't have any bias, except towards my staunch feminist point of view which I won't back down from. I couldn't love him more, I love him so much I could scream.

At 17 he was diagnosed with Autism which I've always felt was the real reason behind his difficulties. We have continued to support him (including through a significant suicide attempts and hospitalisation) and over the last few weeks he has started to open up about having a change of heart about his original plan of taking testosterone, having a radical mastectomy, and having 'bottom' surgery. He's now saying it shouldn't matter what clothes he wears or what gender people call him - ironically what I've said all along.

Maybe he will detransition maybe he won't. Either way we will support and love him and never say "I told you so."

OP posts:
SkaTastic · 27/03/2024 15:28

Oh I am the OP by the way 🙂

OP posts:
lechiffre55 · 27/03/2024 15:33

@JupesLoops
I agree with your message of supporting a child. I think no matter what it's always the parent's duty to be there and available for the child.

However where I disagree with you is what's the best course of action for a child.
If we both take it for granted that any loving parent will want what's best for a child, it then comes down to what is the best course of action? I think this is very much were some people strongly disagree.
One faction says support no matter what, including medical surgery to deal with gender dysphoria.
A different faction says that medical pathway has long term irreversable consequences for the child that an adult might understand better than a child battling mental challenges.
I believe both factions want what they think is best for the child out of genuinely good intentions, but what's best for a child is surely worthy of debate when one solution is surgically removing healthy and natural body parts,
I don't think this issue would be so divisive if not for the potential for irreversable lifelong harm to the child on the medical pathway.

As an example I have a friend who has a young sibling. The sibling has a few mental challenges going on that affect their interactions with other people including thier family in a significantly negative way. The sibling questioned if their problems were down to sexuality, tried out changing their sexuality from straight to homosexual. It didn't make them happy with themself, and they changed back to straight a while later. No harm done. No long term consequences. If their solution had been to go down a medical pathway of hormones and surgery they would have changed their body in an irreversable way, only to find out it wasn't the solution.

For some people I believe that medical sex reassignment might be the path of most happiness for that person, but I believe it's being touted as a one size fits all solution for a whole host of issues, and the underlying issues almost never get addressed. The medical pathway has become politicised, and is very trendy among the virtuous class. The effect on the children has become seemingly suborned to the needs of certain people to gain reputational standing by espousing this new gender religion.
Just one example. I assume you would agree with me if I said the needs of the child should come paramount before everything else? And yet the outcomes of the children going through the medical pathway at the Tavistock were not monitored. How can the best interests of the child be paramount if no one is checking to see if they are OK after the surgery? This smacks of a convery belt, upon which children were placed for surgery, and the process was assumed with no checks to be the best option. You're done, out the door, onto the next one.

If someone was to argue that people with gender dysphoria shouldn't get the care they need because they represent a tiny portion of the population then I hope we would both agree that this would be an incredibly cruel and heartless argument devoid of humanity. And yet when the subject of detransitioners comes up this very argument is used in an attempt to close any discussion of why do people detranstion? down.

The medical pathway is being vociferously championed as a one size fits all solution and i believe that in the majority of cases that it damages children. The irreversable nature of that damage over the rest of the life of the child is why I am so strongly in support of better science and research into the causes of gender dysphoria, mental co-morbidities, and most especially into the best fully holistic and long term course of treatment for young people with gender dysphoria. Such reasearch may prove me completly wrong, and if it does then there will be research and studies to show me why I was wrong. But in my mind only a person who doesn't have the best interests of these childern at heart could object to more research and study into what's the best course of action for these children. And yet there are soo many people opposed to this research. I think they are very afraid that their views and actions may be shown to have been severly damaging to these children, and then they would have to face the consequences of that including admitting to themselves just how wrong they were. What they did to the children.

In your post you say "our brains do often lie to us to protect ourselves"
I do wonder if somtimes a young child facing challenges and approaching puberty might convince themselves that changing sex would be the answer to all their problems. Perhaps a new body equals a new life to them?
I also think your "our brains do often lie to us to protect ourselves" might also apply to adults who have supported the medical pathway in such a close minded no debate manner who are absolutely petrified of being proved to have supported one of the most sociopollitcally driven experiments on children doing incredible irreversable damage in medical history.

I'll leave you with one last thought. Wherever gender dysphoria has been treated with the affirmative care model, it has been done so in an environment where it is treated like a religion where belief and faith count above all else, and it has always supported medical intervention unquestiongly. In environments based on medical science, study, observation, and follow ups, the medical pathway has been recinded, puberty blockers halted or paused, surgery stopped. It has come to a showdown between religion and science. Science welcomes debate and hands out Nobel prizes to the best, religion excommuincates and executes heretics.

DadJoke · 27/03/2024 16:03

Good on you for using your child's name and pronouns, despite your gender critical beliefs.

The most difficult lesson for a teen is "let other people be wrong" - which is more "allow people to have different opinions to you."

InnCognito · 27/03/2024 16:20

SkaTastic · 27/03/2024 15:28

"There’s not much love or support or advocacy. No questioning how the mother can be so certain someone isn’t trans. No questioning if the mother has worked through any bias."

I know he's not trans because the first time it came out of his mouth was when COVID hit, everyone got smashed into lockdown and he spent all day looking for a reason as to why he felt so different. I don't have any bias, except towards my staunch feminist point of view which I won't back down from. I couldn't love him more, I love him so much I could scream.

At 17 he was diagnosed with Autism which I've always felt was the real reason behind his difficulties. We have continued to support him (including through a significant suicide attempts and hospitalisation) and over the last few weeks he has started to open up about having a change of heart about his original plan of taking testosterone, having a radical mastectomy, and having 'bottom' surgery. He's now saying it shouldn't matter what clothes he wears or what gender people call him - ironically what I've said all along.

Maybe he will detransition maybe he won't. Either way we will support and love him and never say "I told you so."

It sounds like you did brilliantly at giving him space to change his mind. They get so railroaded that it can be difficult for them to row back even a small amount . I bet you're so relieved that he seems to be moving away from the medicalised route. I hope it all goes well for you both.

SinnerBoy · 27/03/2024 16:27

lechiffre55 · Today 15:33

I agree with your message of supporting a child. I think no matter what it's always the parent's duty to be there and available for the child.

Bloody good post, Chiffy!

IcakethereforeIam · 27/03/2024 16:48

I wonder if there might some life in this zombie after all?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/03/2024 18:04

Thanks for the update, @Skatastic. I would he cautiously encouraged by the fact that your child appears to be rowing back from the idea of making irreversible bodily changes.

IcakethereforeIam · 27/03/2024 18:11

Apologies OP I hadn't seen your updates. I'll, metaphorically, keep everything crossed for you both.

Childrenofthestones · 27/03/2024 19:57

Ever noticed how so many of these girls are white and middle class? How very rarely you see a black girl and never see a South Asian girl doing this?
Check out Janice Fiamengo's theory on why.
Rapid onset gender dysphoria
She posits that in the left wing bubbles these girls live, the victim totem pole they abide by places them one step from the bottom. She suggests that while black and Asian girls are covered for their left wing cache by virtue of being black or Asian., the only people who have less cache/social value on the left than white middle class girls are white men. By deciding to transition they lift themselves from the bottom to the very top of the victim list.

BezMills · 27/03/2024 20:26

I wish you and your child all the very best @Skatastic
Sorry I don't have any advice but we can hope for the best