Dh peaked last night…

[WhatsAppening]

And by ‘peaked’ I mean my usually mild mannered don’t rock the boat just be kind oh mums going on about that trans stuff again ABSOLUTELY LOST HIS SHIT at 17yo DD telling him ‘super straight’ is transphobic as fuck.

I’ve never heard him swear as much as he did at DD telling him ladycock is a thing. He’s not remotely homophobic but being told he should theoretically accept ladycock into his sex life was a tipping point.

He gets it now.

Some teens do act out just to get attention if nothing positive is coming their way.

And some just act out because they know it all, think they are immortal, think the world's woes are an easy fix, and they want to rebel.

If you have lovely teens, lucky you: don't pat yourself too hard on the back because believe me, a chunk of it is luck. One of mine was a bloody nightmare. The other 2 were mostly completely fine - lovely to be with, just the odd spat.

Nature and nurture. Nature can be a bitch.

Anyone that tries to tell someone that their sexual orientation is transphobic deserves to be shouted at TBH.

DD is a blue haired ‘queer’. Her heterosexual life partner was with her . The conversation started because she said they were in a queer relationship (because they’re both nonbinary, she’s a she/they)

I'm confused. Your DD is gay, but dating a hetero man?

Which one of them is a "she/they"? And isn't it either she/her or them/they? Not a mix? Or do they mix them now?

And if her BF is straight, can he also be non-binary?

I'm not being goady I'm just baffled!

@AlbertBridge

DD is a blue haired ‘queer’. Her heterosexual life partner was with her . The conversation started because she said they were in a queer relationship (because they’re both nonbinary, she’s a she/they)

I'm confused. Your DD is gay, but dating a hetero man?

Which one of them is a "she/they"? And isn't it either she/her or them/they? Not a mix? Or do they mix them now?

And if her BF is straight, can he also be non-binary?

I'm not being goady I'm just baffled!

You think you’re baffled, but you’re actually bang on correct. “Queer” doesn’t mean gay or bi or even not-straight. She/ they means a male or a female who identifies as female and as non-female.

Basically, words mean nothing.

Oh wow I think my niece is an afab enbie!

Though my boomer mum says she's "going through a tomboy phase"

By the way my iPad changed it to Arab Enfield so many times I think it is having identity issues of its own...

@Ceto

I'm pretty sure that to most people, including teenagers, a one-off shouty argument on an emotive issue, maybe even involving a bit of swearing, wouldn't be regarded as abuse.

The point is really that shouting and swearing is hardly something to congratulate someone on. OP seems to think it was great.

Oh give over. The OP thinks it's great that her DH has finally realised what a reductive and backwards philosophy genderism is. The way it happened is secondary...although the DH's reaction was totally valid in the circumstances imo. A young adult (virtually), who dosses at their parents' house rent free, doing nothing with their life, can't show such utter disdain and disrespect for their parents without consequence, blue-haired queerness or not.

I despair at how many posters on here have reading comprehension issues/are deliberately obtuse/disingenuous/all of the above

@WhatsAppening

As though that’s some kind of medical diagnosis that requires reasonable adjustments She really seems to believe that.

I'm going to be blunt, I think you've brought all of this upon yourself. You've mollycoddled her and insulated her from the harsh realities of life.

She needs to go away for a while. Spend a year in a houseshare somewhere a couple of hours away from you, working a minimum wage seasonal job (though ideally somewhere interesting, I worked at a theme park). I did it and so did others I know and it made adults of us and improved our relationships with our parents enormously.

@borntobequiet

Ha, no, not at the creative event, I know where I got it from and it's severe Lemony Snicket a series of unfortunate events territory with a side dish of the way to hell being paved with good intentions.

But I should have barked "social distancing please" - if only I'd thought!

@SquirryTheSquirrel

As someone who had a father renowned for frightening outbursts, I don't think this is something to be boasting about.

Except the OP's husband is not "renowned for his frightening outbursts". He is described as normally mild-mannered.

@nauticant

There's a long MN thread discussing it HermioneKipper:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3753214-The-Guardian-Blind-Date-23-November

Things became muddled when after publication and a row over social media the woman on the date decided to say that she had no problems, as a lesbian, going on a date with a transwoman.

Quote from that thread: It’s a damn shame because The Guardian has been relatively reasonable about the gender stuff prior to now. They’re one of the few outlets that actually publishes writing about women’s concerns on this.

How things have changed.

@AlbertBridge

DD is a blue haired ‘queer’. Her heterosexual life partner was with her . The conversation started because she said they were in a queer relationship (because they’re both nonbinary, she’s a she/they)

I'm confused. Your DD is gay, but dating a hetero man?

Which one of them is a "she/they"? And isn't it either she/her or them/they? Not a mix? Or do they mix them now?

And if her BF is straight, can he also be non-binary?

I'm not being goady I'm just baffled!

You’re confused because you’re starting from the POV thar words have meanings.

Unfortunately, in this brave new world we live in, that’s no longer the case for a great many people (and if they have their way, they won’t allow words to have meanings for anyone else, either).

So “queer” was a pejorative term for gay people; then it got “reclaimed” by some gay people to use for and about themselves (eg the TV series Queer As Folk); then it spread to being an umbrella term that doesn’t just include sexual orientation but also “gender identity”.

So you have couples who are perfectly heterosexual (as in OP’s DD and her boyf) but because they’re both “non binary” they say they’re “queer”.

People who say they’re non binary claim to be neither male nor female, as if it were possible for any human being to be neither, because they think that the concept of “gender identity” supersedes the reality of sex. Hence “queer” because they’re not a regular teenage girl and boy in a relationship, they’re massively special non-girl/non-boy people. And the fact they’re actually a female person and a male person having heterosexual sex is quite irrelevant to their incredibly special queerness.

“Gender identity” is actually nothing to do with sexual orientation in and of itself but if a “trans girl” (biologically male) goes out with a girl (biologically female), they can both then claim to be lesbians and suddenly they’re queer! Heterosexuality rebranded and made so much more on trend.

And obviously just having a special gender identity automatically makes you fabulously “queer” anyway.

Oh and yes, some NBs do offer the choice of she/they or he/they now. Can’t really explain that one. Maybe “a tiny part of me still knows reality exists but I’d really rather it didn’t”? Anyway, it’s the DD who’s a she/they here. But possibly the BF is too. Or maybe he’s a he/they. Or just a bog standard old fashioned they/them type of NB. Who knows?

Is that any more clear??

God, there's some sanctimonious scolds on this thread. Your DH did nothing wrong, OP. Good for him, and I'm happy for you that he's seen the light.

Beautifully explained talkingtolang 😀

I think one of the most depressing things for me is, how can anyone actually enjoy sex when they have to think about it so hard, and in such a confusing way? Maybe they just talk or think about it instead of doing anything, in which case there may be health benefits.

People who say they’re non binary claim to be neither male nor female, as if it were possible for any human being to be neither, because they think that the concept of “gender identity” supersedes the reality of sex. Hence “queer” because they’re not a regular teenage girl and boy in a relationship, they’re massively special non-girl/non-boy people. And the fact they’re actually a female person and a male person having heterosexual sex is quite irrelevant to their incredibly special queerness.

Beautifully put.

There must come a point when the number of rebel-rebel you tore your dress non-conforming, non-normal people reaches a critical mass and they become the norm that all the cool kids feel oblged to rebel against?

There's a really funny tiktok clip which features a girl ranting about criticism she has received for posting that she is a lesbian. There then follows a confused diatribe where she declares herself and her partner ,whom she describes as her "boyfriend" ,to be non binary. At the end she misgenders both herself and her partner by saying I am a woman in love with a non man as he is non binary. The convoluted language would be hilarious if it weren't so homophobic.

You're confused because you're starting from the POV that words have meanings
And this crock of crap we owe to post-modernism. I always did think it was utter bullshit, but I'm not enjoying being proved right.

@zoemum2006

Why do people find it so hard to talk to teenagers?

Why do people think shouting and swearing at them is ok?

Can't you just talk to them - even if they are pushing at the boundaries of what we consider normal? Because it was ever thus.

Can't you just say "this is a very new way of thinking about things and I don't really agree with it but I am prepared to listen and talk so we can understand each other".

I remember my parents being horrible to me when I said minstrel shows were racist - they called me ignorant. That still hurts 30 years later!

Couldn't they have just said to me "it used to be something people thought was entertaining but times have changes and we now understand it to be racist. It's important not to judge people in the past by our current beliefs because people in the future may judge our attitudes badly too".

These things are all learning opportunities for your children. Don't just shut them down and punish them.

It is the opposite of what you're saying really, though, isn't it? It is rather like your kid is telling you that white people putting on a cosmetic (and usually offensive) presentation of black people is a new way of thinking. And you should consider these white people as brave in their new way of thinking. Oh and you're a bigot against them if you don't.

I would consider myself similar to the person who said the minstrels was wrong, if I point out I consider drag and ott female presentation by males is also wrong. Maybe in 30 years time, we will look back at the punching down at women through a presentation of cosmetic 'womanning' stereotypes.

@Cailleach1

After 2000+ years of abuse and subjugation, I admire your optimism that women will be seen as human beings worthy of respect and protections in just 30 years.

That’s exactly what I was thinking, Cailleach. It’s an entirely false equivalence that @zoemum2006 presented. In this case, it’s the DD whose views are bigoted, being both misogynistic snd homophobic, and her parents who are standing for actual social justice.

But such is the extent of patriarchy’s grip that this audacious reversal, this classic example of the backlash against feminism, still has huge currency among alarming numbers of “liberal” people. They are convinced they are the enlightened progressive ones, and doing everything in their power to erase women’s rights and gay rights under the banner of “trans rights”.

When they will all come to their senses (the ones that are unwittingly following and enabling this covert form of male supremacism) snd realise that this is just another manifestation of patriarchy, a case of it reinventing itself to survive, I don’t know.

I’d like to be optimistic and hope it’s within 30 years. But who knows. AllTheUsernames makes a very good point. How can we realistically expect actual feminism to have become embedded after just a few decades of some progress, against the backdrop of literally millennia of subjugation, in every culture we know of - for probably 6000+ years, in fact?

@Jaysmith71

There must come a point when the number of rebel-rebel you tore your dress non-conforming, non-normal people reaches a critical mass and they become the norm that all the cool kids feel oblged to rebel against?

You’d think and hope so! I do see some signs of it among some younger teens now, school and social media indoctrination notwithstanding.

But this was never actually a youth movement to start with, this was born out of canny political lobbying (and male privilege, power and financial backing of course), and the capture of the Establishment is something that is going to take a lot of work to undo. Still, if they do lose the youth credibility factor, that would be a big hit for them and a big win for us.

It's not very rebellious when you're spouting the same line as the Civil Service and MPs in the government is it?