GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

[cariadlet]

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

@BilindaB

Ok, Trans Women will never experience the miracle of a life inside them, the most intimate bond between mother and baby, if they want children they will have to adopt (I'm adopted btw - and there's a lot to it most people don't realise) and most mother's preference is for the baby to be a flesh and blood descendent, alongside other biological siblings, something a trans woman will never have. A privilege a cis woman will have.

They can father children. A privilege women don't have.

''What I cannot accept is the sleight of hand that says that since an ideal world where we can have safe mixed sex provisions can be envisioned, it's ok to jump straight to saying Yes to making single sex into mixed sex now without demanding those changes are made and proved to have worked first.''

I think they are fairly common already. I said I went to one, now that I think about it the pool in North London I used to go to was the same. You'd have to ask them if they run into any trouble, but they seemed o work fine to me.

@JulesJules

"The latest stats on UK Twitter show that 25 out of a 100 people use Twitter and of those 25 only 10 are female.

So for starters, no more than one in five women use the platform"

So isn't that 1 in 10 (10 out of 100)?

100 people = 50 female and 50 male

(and even though it's really 51:49, we typically assume a 50/50 split when we talk about everyone, because that's easier to compute).

So 10 women out of 50 women.

Why have we gone back to changing rooms, this was a pub not a pool and I’ve been drawn in to that too!

BilindaB, please may I ask you a question. What is your opinion about what happened in the pub?

@BilindaB

''Women need sex segregation that doesn't rely on cubicles. When they have children, toddlers, prams, elderly parents.''

Have some big cubicles. Like they have for family changing.

I've been to swimming pools that have this exact system.It's a unisex changing area with secure cubicles, some of which are double size for families.

And there you are, at it again.

As I've said before, it's so mind blowing, to me, that the facilities women need, through no fault of their own, and had to work bloody hard for, purely in order to lead normal lives and be protected because of their sex, should now be repurposed as a validation tool, for the very people they they were provided to protect us from in the first place.

We are not a bloody service.

Statistically, mixed sex facilities account for 90% of all sex attacks in changing facilities. Why would anyone want to repurpose changing facilities resulting in a massive increase in risk for women and children? Seriously, why?

@Viewfromtheisland

Why have we gone back to changing rooms, this was a pub not a pool and I’ve been drawn in to that too!

BilindaB, please may I ask you a question. What is your opinion about what happened in the pub?

I wasn't there, so I wouldn't like to say 100%. But it depends on whether the group was being disruptive enough for the establishment to want them to leave. They say they were upsetting other customers (have we heard from any other customers there that night?). They were handing out leaflets and possibly putting stickers up which other patrons would find offensive, that's not in doubt and that could be a chucking out offence, although probably if it was just that, a warning would suffice - if they said sorry and took back all their leaflets... Once they were asked to leave and refused, calling the police doesn't seem unreasonable.

They were handing out leaflets and possibly putting stickers up which other patrons would find offensive, that's not in doubt

Unless I have missed something, it's entirely in doubt. Even the person in question said they 'found' material in the toilets. Not that they saw anyone put them there. And it was Edinburgh fringe. Leaflets and stickers are being left everywhere all day long.

And again, the bar person said the staff felt uncomfortable, felt threatened.

When asked what the woman actually said, he replied with they are just cunts.

Seriously. Where are you reading this stuff?

You'd have to ask them if they run into any trouble, but they seemed o work fine to me.

Well bully for you, that's alright then as long as everything is okay for you it matters not if it isn't okay for others. Add selfish, blinkered and uncaring as to others experiences or needs to the long list of negative attributes of this ideology.

@RedDogsBeg

You'd have to ask them if they run into any trouble, but they seemed o work fine to me.

Well bully for you, that's alright then as long as everything is okay for you it matters not if it isn't okay for others. Add selfish, blinkered and uncaring as to others experiences or needs to the long list of negative attributes of this ideology.

That's not my point is it, I said you'd have to ask them if it caused trouble because I only have my experiences. Seems like you deliberately misinterpreted my post so you could insult me.

They were handing out leaflets and possibly putting stickers up which other patrons would find offensive, that's not in doubt

That is very much in doubt, the people who were there and were targeted and had the Police called on them vehemently deny this.

Originally the bartender said he threw them out because Marion was wearing a T-shirt with a slogan on, Marion was wearing no such thing, so then the story changed.

The group were not spoken to at all during the evening, the events only occurred when Marion dropped in for a drink with them, the bartender recognised Marion and then the ever changing story of what happened began.

@BilindaB

''What I cannot accept is the sleight of hand that says that since an ideal world where we can have safe mixed sex provisions can be envisioned, it's ok to jump straight to saying Yes to making single sex into mixed sex now without demanding those changes are made and proved to have worked first.''

I think they are fairly common already. I said I went to one, now that I think about it the pool in North London I used to go to was the same. You'd have to ask them if they run into any trouble, but they seemed o work fine to me.

There's examples above of problems.

And common is not the same as comprehensive. Trans accommodation aside, I don't think you realise just how often the things women request for safety and convenience are not deemed practical or cost efficient. I'm not sure why you think wholesale restructuring to ensure when male people are let into female spaces it doesn't disadvantage or discomfort female people will get any more traction, especially since the male people don't see the need.

But that aside, I'm not talking about just changing rooms. I'm talking about everything . First make the safeguards redundant, then remove the safeguards. Not just remove them for ideological reasons and assume it will all be OK.

That's not my point is it, I said you'd have to ask them if it caused trouble because I only have my experiences. Seems like you deliberately misinterpreted my post so you could insult me.

The point is you are touting this as the solution because you have not had a problem.

They were handing out leaflets and possibly putting stickers up which other patrons would find offensive, that's not in doubt

Have you got evidence for this?

@RedDogsBeg

They were handing out leaflets and possibly putting stickers up which other patrons would find offensive, that's not in doubt

That is very much in doubt, the people who were there and were targeted and had the Police called on them vehemently deny this.

Originally the bartender said he threw them out because Marion was wearing a T-shirt with a slogan on, Marion was wearing no such thing, so then the story changed.

The group were not spoken to at all during the evening, the events only occurred when Marion dropped in for a drink with them, the bartender recognised Marion and then the ever changing story of what happened began.

The story has changed so many times that personally i think that there is no doubt that the bartender recognised marian and attempted to remove the party because of their own dislike of her.

The bartender has changed the story more times than people change their socks, I doubt the truth is a bedfellow of theirs.

I wasn't there, so I wouldn't like to say 100%. But it depends on whether the group was being disruptive enough for the establishment to want them to leave. They say they were upsetting other customers (have we heard from any other customers there that night?). They were handing out leaflets and possibly putting stickers up which other patrons would find offensive, that's not in doubt and that could be a chucking out offence, although probably if it was just that, a warning would suffice - if they said sorry and took back all their leaflets... Once they were asked to leave and refused, calling the police doesn't seem unreasonable.

All we know for sure is that the bartender says the bartender called the police because the women were 'c**s'). Everything else is contested.

*I'm unsure of desired pronoun here, it seems to vary.

They were handing out leaflets and possibly putting stickers up which other patrons would find offensive, that's not in doubt and that could be a chucking out offence, although probably if it was just that, a warning would suffice -

I believe the bartender said his stuff found unspecified material in the toilets, which they attributed to these women.

That's very different from seeing them personally approaching other patrons in the bar area with leaflets, isn't it?

Yes it's different. Either side could be lying, both could be, I wasn't there and there's not enough evidence either way for me to say if it was fair or not for them to be evicted.

@BilindaB

''And you cannot see the transphobic nature of your statements where you suggest that ‘passing’ males should have access to female single sex spaces but others shouldn’t.''

As you quoted, I said nothing about passing trans women should have access to women's spaces as opposed to those who don't pass.

Though it's a fact that passing trans DO access women's (or men's if they're a trans man) spaces all the time and have been for decades.

Just getting back to the thread.

My quote came from this post of yours on page 24.

This is where we reach an impasse. Because what you are calling 'males' I consider women. They are recognised as women by the law. More women recognize them as women than do not. They consider themselves women - now picture a passing trans woman like Katy Montgomerie, not, say, Eddie Izzard (though some women do look like Eddie Izzard...) - that is to me, and the world, a woman, whatever sex they were born. And they face tremendous hostility on top of the struggle their life has been. I want them to feel welcome. I want everyone to make allowances to make these human beings who have done nothing wrong, feel they belong in this society.

This isn't a fad, it's not going away, the world will have to change. I'd rather it was done with compassion, not ''I'm not giving up an inch for a perverted man in a dress!' You believe your own hype. Most trans people want to live in peace and cause no trouble, while being treated as human beings, not some other, lesser class. I fight for the oppressed and the disadvantaged, and sorry, compared with trans people, we women aren't the oppressed, we're the privileged.

I realise many of you will not be able to accept that, but others do, others will. History moves forward.

You state And they face tremendous hostility on top of the struggle their life has been. I want them to feel welcome.

So, I am quite confused. Maybe you meant something different, but I understand this post to state you welcome these males you consider women. And I have read this as you stating that other males who don’t pass are not welcome. That is discrimination against males who do not pass. But maybe you didn’t mean to convey that particular message.

And again to you believe your own hype. No. I believe the statistics and the scientific facts. I believe in safeguarding measures which require males to be considered as a sex class and NOT ever have a subset of adult males be given an exemption based on someone’s idea of kindness.

After all, safeguarding is actually the reason to exclude males from female single sex spaces. Regardless of cubicle configuration. Plus the dignity and privacy for females of all ages.

@BilindaB

Yes it's different. Either side could be lying, both could be, I wasn't there and there's not enough evidence either way for me to say if it was fair or not for them to be evicted.

and yet you said this earlier and seemed pretty sure then:

They were handing out leaflets and possibly putting stickers up which other patrons would find offensive, that's not in doubt

now picture a passing trans woman like Katy Montgomerie, not, say, Eddie Izzard (though some women do look like Eddie Izzard...) - that is to me, and the world, a woman, whatever sex they were born

You basically said that (to you) a passing transwoman is a woman

This privilege of pregnancy thing.

A half hearted oh maybe that's a bit iffy doesn't cut it.

Some stats. Please read them. This is about death of massive numbers of women and girls. And 7 MILLION women and girls having to be admitted to hospital every year. That's the ones who can GET to a hosp where detailed stats are collected.

In USA child marriage is legal and often used to render CSA not criminal in some Christian communities. 14yo girl pg by much older man? Marry. No legal issue all gone.

From memory 20k women in UK lose their job every year because they are pregnant.

Unsafe abortion- WHO
'Key facts
Between 2015 and 2019, on average, 73.3 million induced (safe and unsafe) abortions occurred worldwide each year.(1)
There were 39 induced abortions per 1000 women aged between 15–49 years.(1)
3 out of 10 (29%) of all pregnancies, and 6 out of 10 (61%) of all unintended pregnancies, ended in an induced abortion. (1)
Among these, 1 out of 3 were carried out in the least safe or dangerous conditions.(2)
Over half of all estimated unsafe abortions globally were in Asia, most of them in south and central Asia. (2)
3 out of 4 abortions that occurred in Africa and Latin America were unsafe.(2)
The risk of dying from an unsafe abortion was the highest in Africa.(2)
Each year between 4.7% – 13.2% of maternal deaths can be attributed to unsafe abortion (3).
Estimates from 2010 to 2014 showed that around 45% of all abortions were unsafe. Almost all of these unsafe abortions took place in developing countries (2)
Around 7 million women are admitted to hospitals every year in developing countries, as a result of unsafe abortion (4).'

You basically said that (to you) a passing transwoman is a woman

That is the way I read it too, Rufus. Because the next sentences were the ones about welcoming them in and how hard their life was.

When you think women are being mean and unfair and say such nasty ill informed rubbish without a second thought.

All it shows is that you do not know about or care about women and girls at all.

7 MILLION. Child marriage. Death.

And that's before women and girls being beaten executed imprisoned for being pregnant.

You have strong views but you seem totally blind as so many are, to the realities for women and girls. Here and around the world and for as long as anyone knows.

That's what feminism is for. Because if women don't shout, people don't know or care.

No. Sorry. How could you even say what you said?

@BilindaB

Yes it's different. Either side could be lying, both could be, I wasn't there and there's not enough evidence either way for me to say if it was fair or not for them to be evicted.

Why did you say that they were handing out leaflets then? When you don't even know if that's true? That's quite an allegation isn't it.