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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

999 replies

cariadlet · 22/08/2021 20:02

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

OP posts:
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BilindaB · 26/08/2021 09:24

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But we are told we are horribly transphobic for even daring to imagine there might be "nefarious reasons". This conversation is silenced because people don't want to acknowledge it. Go and say that on a TRA forum and see what response you get. It will be more than a few mild ad hominems.

So does that mean you think males without this "recognition" should use male single sex spaces?

That would follow, yes. I think it would be very rare to fail (though who knows), but for those who are genuine it would shield them from criticism too, being able to say 'a doctor/medical expert interviewed me X times before agreeing my transition was valid'
Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/08/2021 09:24

I'm sure your friend, like me, just sees that like many people you've become caught up in an incoherent and pseudoscientific ideology that prioritises what a small group of males want and doesn't consider the needs of women and girls as remotely relevant or important.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/08/2021 09:25

That would follow, yes. I think it would be very rare to fail (though who knows),

Why?

Jorriss · 26/08/2021 09:25

I wish both sides could negotiate and maybe come to some agreements that aren't there presently. I'm not holding my breath, but I'd like to seem more efforts at civil discourse rather than abuse and threats.

I think you'll find the majority of threats come from the trans activists side.

The only fair negotiation is a third space for transwomen. Not for women to give up their spaces, in turn putting them at risk.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/08/2021 09:26

@Viewfromtheisland

the original report disappeared, as it did from the evening news. It is now back, although edited - no names mentioned this time.

Thank you! Did people complain and ask for their names to be removed?

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 26/08/2021 09:30

But there is much bigotry of other kinds aimed at trans people all the time from the gender critical camp

Woukd you be basing that on some of the ‘worst’ outliers?

Blibbyblobby · 26/08/2021 09:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 26/08/2021 09:33

This thread begins with a male who feels entirely justified in calling women who publicly hold different views "cunts". How did he get to feel so confident is his self-righteousness? Because the debate is entirely dominated by one narrative and the opposite view is being silenced

And if you swapped it to a barman calling transpeople cunts they'd be sacked…rightly

BilindaB · 26/08/2021 09:34

''But just as importantly, is it really that difficult for you to understand that women don't want any man in there.''

You're speaking for all women. Many women, according to polls, think transwomen are women, and even in that wings over scotland poll, asking 'do you think a trans woman who still has a penis should be allowed in women's changing rooms, even if those women object' = One in five women said yes.

(and you know my solution, private cubicles for all)

Datun · 26/08/2021 09:37

That would follow, yes. I think it would be very rare to fail (though who knows), but for those who are genuine it would shield them from criticism too, being able to say 'a doctor/medical expert interviewed me X times before agreeing my transition was valid'

Way back when, that's exactly what happened.

When Parliament passed the GRA, it was understood that only about 5000 people, largely men I believe, would need it.

Of course, if you are basing a medical exemption certificate on words someone says out loud, you're going to start having to include people who don't fit your criteria, but can pretend they do.

Which is why exceptions were written in to the act itself. Unfortunately, these exceptions are no longer implemented.

Parliament made the mistake of making them discretionary. They thought that public opinion would uphold sex segregation where it was necessary.

But with the fierce lobbying and the sheer number of males who now identify as women, the exceptions are more than useless.

Which is why the GRA needs repealing.

One of the examples of an exception was a rape refuge. It was understood that women who have been raped and sexually assaulted would need an all-female environment in which to recover.

But you now have a transwoman running a Scottish rape refuge who says that the women survivors there who don't agree men are women, are bigoted and need to 'reframe their trauma'.

Another example was female sport. No one in their right mind thought that men would compete as women. And now you have, nine males competing as women in the bloody Olympics.

So, and I hope you understand that this is said with a degree of understatement, women are pushing back.

Women are being sexually assaulted in female prisons by male rapists, victims of male rapists are told they are bigoted if they don't agree men are women, and men are competing as women in female sport across the land.

The answer is no.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/08/2021 09:40

You're speaking for all women. Many women, according to polls, think transwomen are women, and even in that wings over scotland poll, asking 'do you think a trans woman who still has a penis should be allowed in women's changing rooms, even if those women object' = One in five women said yes.

And the other four said no. So that's the majority of women. Consent can't be given by proxy. I do not consent to males in my female spaces, and I'd like my consent, and that of most women, to be respected.

WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld · 26/08/2021 09:41

Third space is the only fair way. Bilinda and other women can provide validation for those who want it and single sex spaces for everyone else
The transsexuals in female space (which didn't include women in the decision making and i don't agree with) only worked because other males respected women's spaces and didn't enter then
That ship has sailed. Other groups, who do not want women to have sex based rights, have jumped on board and can act in misogynistic ways and be considered progressive

Datun · 26/08/2021 09:43

(and you know my solution, private cubicles for all)

Do you have any idea of the sexism behind this comment?

You are suggesting that women change every protocol about women's sex segregation, in order to accommodate a handful of men that you think should be validated by those women.

Women need sex segregation that doesn't rely on cubicles. When they have children, toddlers, prams, elderly parents.

Plus cubicles aren't going to work in prison, are they? Or a rape refuge? Or in hospitals, or mental health facilities. Or in sport.

I mean, I know the sexism that underpins the fact that women are seen as lesser than, as a service provider to men, and are simply not to be taken into account, is rife in transgenderism.

But to see it so clearly laid out by someone who thinks that is the right way to be, is very depressing.

Datun · 26/08/2021 09:49

Many women, according to polls, think transwomen are women,

And this is why the entire issue is so bloody stupid. Where it all falls down.

Because according to you, the women who think transwomen should be in female spaces, could just as easily be male themselves.

It's the height of enough that you are defining men as women to get your point across and then simultaneously undefining them in order to get another point across.

As I said its jibber jabber.

Men are women when men want it, then women are suddenly women when men don't want it, because their sentence doesn't make any sense.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/08/2021 09:51

Because according to you, the women who think transwomen should be in female spaces, could just as easily be male themselves.

Yes.

Ekofisk · 26/08/2021 09:51

(and you know my solution, private cubicles for all)

When I was involved in organising sport, the only incident we had (and it was a very unpleasant incident) took place in a mixed sex changing village.

“Private cubicles for all” isn’t the magic bullet that you think it is.

littlbrowndog · 26/08/2021 09:52

But back to the original thing this thread was about.

And police Scotland who are completely captured. Seems like in Scotland we all have to have a gender identity. And we are assigned at birth our gender.

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2021/08/25/whose-views-count-losing-sight-of-sex-in-the-police-scotland-your-police-survey/

They are not collecting data on what our sex is. How can this be possible
I feel in Scotland that police Scotland. No longer care about women and girls

I phoned police Scotland twice on Saturday night. Still waiting.

GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub
Datun · 26/08/2021 09:54

@littlbrowndog

But back to the original thing this thread was about.

And police Scotland who are completely captured. Seems like in Scotland we all have to have a gender identity. And we are assigned at birth our gender.

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2021/08/25/whose-views-count-losing-sight-of-sex-in-the-police-scotland-your-police-survey/

They are not collecting data on what our sex is. How can this be possible
I feel in Scotland that police Scotland. No longer care about women and girls

I phoned police Scotland twice on Saturday night. Still waiting.

That's unbelievable. We don't need to know the sex of criminals.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/08/2021 09:54

I think this non collecting of data which pertains to a legally protected group under the Equality Act, women who are "a female of any age" and structurally disadvantaged, should be challenged.

littlbrowndog · 26/08/2021 09:54

Yet we have this. How do they know who is being groomed and who is grooming if police Scotland just depend on gender identity.

GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub
Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/08/2021 09:55

How can they monitor inequality and creating a hostile environment for women if they don't accept the legal definition, and don't collect sex disaggregated data?

Blibbyblobby · 26/08/2021 09:59

Aw shite, I just realised I probably disrespectfully misgendered the individual who feels entitled to call women with different political views "cunts"

Here's a rephrased post. I'll report my original.

I don't know the person's preferred pronouns and I don't want to obsess finding them out so this may be a bit stilted to avoid accidental misgendering.

I wish both sides could negotiate and maybe come to some agreements that aren't there presently. I'm not holding my breath, but I'd like to seem more efforts at civil discourse rather than abuse and threats.

Do you seriously think this is coming from people with GC views? We would love to talk, find common ground and support trans people in a way that doesn't deny the rights and existence of female people.

And indeed many individual trans people feel the same.

But the lobbyists and politicians are tied to a single narrative that states Trans Women Are Women (and TMAM and NBIAV) and Self ID is the only civilised way to support trans people. It is impossible to have a public debate, or even a visible social media conversation, about the problems with those positions without being piled on and shouted down as a transpobe and bigot, possibly doxxed and fired. For saying less than you have on this thread.

This thread begins with a male who feels entirely justified in calling women who publicly hold different views "cunts". How did that male get to feel so confident and self-righteous? Because the debate is entirely dominated by one narrative and the opposite view is being silenced.

terryleather · 26/08/2021 10:14

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think this non collecting of data which pertains to a legally protected group under the Equality Act, women who are "a female of any age" and structurally disadvantaged, should be challenged.
I agree Eresh, it's completely ridiculous.

They are so steeped in genderist ideology and diversity & inclusion wankpiffle that they can't see the wood for the trees and have completely lost sight of the actual material reality that is sex and its importance for females.

BS like this from Police Scotland and our other institutions just serves to underline the third rate minds pushing this pish but they're too high on their own sanctimony to see it.

I despise what this country and its institutions have become.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/08/2021 10:15

It's a really serious problem, if the female sex class is being written out of data.

midgemagneto · 26/08/2021 10:21

I guess the desire to not collect data relating to females suggests that we are the most hard put upon class and would totally mess up the proof of how the problems of diversity and inclusiveness are being solved

the easiest way to solve that is to not collect the data