Welsh Government: Transgender people are people who are born as one sex but are the other sex

[OldCrone]

This is from the new LGBTQ+ Action Plan for Wales: easy read version

Transgender people are people who are born as one sex but are the other sex. For example, a person who looks like a man on the outside may be a woman on the inside

This is one of the documents for the current consultation about the new LGBTQ+ Action Plan.

I decided to look at the easy read version and the young people's version since the standard version didn't seem to have any kind of glossary about the terms used. The easy read version does, but some of the definitions, like this one, don't make sense. The young people's version, like the standard version, has no glossary.

In a consultation about LGBTQ+ people, the Welsh Government appears to be unable to define clearly what terms like 'transgender', 'gender identity' and 'non-binary' actually mean.

Well, quite: "Inside" of what? Where? How?

Is this a synaptic thing in the brain? An endocrinal difference? Or are we talking metaphysical souls, in which case since when did the law concern itself with those?

We do have to have some statutary, formal recognition of transpeople in place, I think, as people of the same value as any other humans. I'm only talking about very basic principles, like that. Just enough of them such that they can get by, to some minimally comfortable and safe level, without their lives being made any harder and more miserable than they need be.

They already do in the UK. Human rights. Same as anybody else. The problem is that many transwomen also want women's rights on top of their own existing human rights that everyone else has. But if they are given women's rights, it means women no longer have rights and safeguards because their spaces are opened up to everyone.

Of course we could look at third alternatives for transwomen. But they don't want that. Because it's not about having third options. It's about forcing women to validate them with their bodies and spaces.

Women need to be comfortable and safe without their lives being harder. Trans ideology seeks to destroy that for women.

Changing the rules of society so that it is separated by gender rather than sex puts women and children at risk. As we can see.

This document is nothing short of chilling.

Looking a lot like full institutional capture. Much of the data sources Stonewalled.

Full actions rolling in TWAW, Self-ID, destruction of womens sport. Anti-conversion rules (probably medicalising dysphoria).

Re-education of the population.

Action 49 'Give it time'.

Nice reminder on the front page as to what happens if you exhibit wrongthink too:

'Respondents are reminded that the right to freedom of expression is a qualified right and there are specific offences in relation to hate crime created by, for example, the Public Order Act 1986 and the Malicious Communications Act 1988. The Equality and Human Rights Commission have produced guidance on issues relating to freedom of expression and where this may be restricted. Please ensure that any response you make to the consultation is lawful.'

Given the actions aspire to full capture of the Police you could be closer to wrongthink than you might realise....

Nice reminder on the front page as to what happens if you exhibit wrongthink too:

They've changed that since it was published on 28th July. It originally said:

We will not tolerate hateful comments about a person’s sexual orientation, gender identity, race, religion or disability and any responses that contain hate speech will be passed to the authorities.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210805101926/gov.wales/consultation-lgbtq-action-plan-html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210805101926/gov.wales/consultation-lgbtq-action-plan-html

According to the archive, the change took place sometime between 5th August and 17th August, but the page still says it was last updated on 28th July.

The problem with 'gender identity' is that nobody can explain what everyone with the same 'gender identity' has in common. What do all women and transwomen have in common with each other that they do not also have in common with any men or transmen? The question is unanswerable. It can't even begin to be answered.

-
Is this a synaptic thing in the brain? An endocrinal difference? Or are we talking metaphysical souls, in which case since when did the law concern itself with those?

Right, I don't think anyone has been able to truly explain what people with the same gender identity have in common. Like many on MN have said, and I agree: it seems to boil down to stereotypes:

Woman seems to equal: likes dresses, makeup, glitter, decorating, baking, doing hair and nails, long hair, dolls, pink, maternal, clean, quiet/less movement play, etc. and then the stereotypes for behavior: is more submissive, chatty, quiet, picks "women" jobs like nursing, receptionist, non-math-related jobs, non-manager roles, etc

Men seems to equal: likes pants, suits, short hair, no-fuss appearance, assertive, active play, cars, mechanics, leadership, engineering, risk taking, getting dirty, non-maternal, etc.

People like to cite that it's just natural genetics since time began that men are leaders and women are maternal and all that. However, I think even Native American cultures and others had what we would call more "maternal" men. And then think of the Amazon women warriors. A lot of it though goes to back to: well, in caveman days the woman stayed back with kids and cooked etc and the men went off for food and fighting. Men are usually physically stronger, so there's that.

And maybe it is a brain synapse thing or hormonal related to a part? There are LOTS more chemicals in society today, endocrine disruptors. It could be all the chemicals and meds we ingest, eat, drink, breathe, put on the body?? I know I've seen science articles showing/stating how endocrine disruptor hormones have been affecting animals. Fish or frogs or something changing behavior from male to female or vice versa (not sure if it affects their physiology).

Thing is, some animal species have a role reversal, from a human standpoint. Like some male birds do a lot of the "mothering." I mean, male seahorses are the ones that give birth.

The hormone aspect is interesting to me cuz that is a singular thing different nowadays than in the past: the saturation of chemicals in the environment. Which would probably affect the affect the brain too I'd imagine in addition to endocrine system. However, even women with higher levels of testosterone are still xx chromosome/female animals, so, I'm back at square one of being confused.

I'm starting to think the whole thing is meant to purposely mass confuse the population. Not from the individuals who are trans or anything; on a systemic, institution base--government, schools, medical/mental health. ? The exact purpose or endgame, not sure. Take over of institutions, therefore society? Why? Confuse the public to make them pliable and controllable? I mean identity is a pretty core thing for humans, and sex and gender a pretty big one.

Let's say the TRAs concluded their aim: got laws changed, trans men and women are now protected legally, can go anywhere even traditional woman or man spaces, can get free trans surgeries etc etc. And let's say all society accepted that. Maybe that means sex means nothing. Theoretically that might not be so bad IF there weren't aggressive/abuser jerks using it to hurt others, mostly women . Maybe they want everyone in society to not care about sex. Thing is, since humans have millions of years of natal males exploiting, oppressing, abusing natal females, of course some opportunistic jerks will exploit that. Cuz, like has been said before on MN, anyone can say the feel like a woman, or man, and they could be lyinghow would we know? We can'twe have to take it at face value. There's no test. And legit TW and TM lose out too cuz a few jerks co-opt it and use it for abuse, when I'm sure the vast majority just wanna live and let live.

I don't think we will know the results of all this for another like 10 years; when the younger kids in the midst of this popular movement are way older and adults. How will society be then? Will most of society not care about sex? Maybe they won't. Males and females in all shared spaces, no biggie. Everyone is who they say they are. I suppose if they have some way to identify and weed out the ones that are lying in order to abuse etc. I mean even now it's not always easy to spot beforehand who is going to be an abuser. Think of how many women say, "but he was so nice I didn't know he'd be an abusive husband, or abuse my kids, etc etc." that's always been a thing. Perhaps the goal is to erase sex and therefore have more equality, which means right now we are in the interim phase. Say in the future a good most the people are trans. Or most the population's endocrine systems are out of whack. ??

I still think this is going to culminate in most the population identifying out of bodies all together. Either in a pure dysmorphic/mental way, or literally like into robot bodies or something. Whether that's ultimately good, I don't know. I give it 10-20 years. Even a google or maybe apple exec who has made predictions about technology for a long time and has been 80% or so correct in his assessments, has predicted that by 2030 people will have computer chips in their brains.

Dunno, just throwing out scenarios, thoughts.

Perhaps humanity as a whole is having an identity crisis?

Can I politely request that you stop derailing this thread with your thoughts about what might or might not happen to the human race at some future point @WinglessSonglessBird and start your own thread if that's what you want to discuss?

The topic of this thread is the current Welsh Government consultation about their new LGBTQ+ Action Plan.

gov.wales/lgbtq-action-plan

As for the term 'gender identity', the Welsh Government hasn't even attempted to define it in any of their documents, but have said that people might want recognition for it or face discrimination because of it. But they are still unable to define what it is.

ok, I do apologize, my bad.

I had thought it was relevant because there is some sort of agenda for governments all over the world being on board with this. So knowing the endgame agenda might help better see this in the broader picture, make sense of the steps they are taking to get from a to b. Though we will never know, I suppose; only in hindsight. True.
I apologize

back to the topic all....

I get a bit worried when people either imply or complain that what women who want to preserve their sex-based rights are doing is preventing trans people from having human rights or trying to take away rights they already have. Everyone has human rights and in the UK the law quite properly recognises that people who are trans - those with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment - need additional protection from discrimination, harassment and victimisation. I have never, ever heard anyone actually argue that those rights should be taken away - only accusations from the other side which sadly some people appear to believe (because they maybe don't think much of women?) without listening or engaging with the issue in any way. It's just knee jerk 'Oh, those nasty women must be in the wrong. It's bollocks.

The issue is that some activists, trainers and consultants involved in equality work with Welsh Government (as well as elsewhere) have been behaving as if some of the wishes and wants of trans people were actually legal rights, when they are not. The anger comes from having those special privileges, granted often because organisations and businesses have been deceived and, if we're honest, because they still 'other' people who are non-conforming, are under threat of being taken away. Like a temper tantrum from people who should be able to behave as reflective grown-ups which as a consequence scare a lot of trans people and their friends or family who just believe the so-called 'champions of LGBT rights' like Stonewall.

@WinglessSonglessBird

ok, I do apologize, my bad.

I had thought it was relevant because there is some sort of agenda for governments all over the world being on board with this. So knowing the endgame agenda might help better see this in the broader picture, make sense of the steps they are taking to get from a to b. Though we will never know, I suppose; only in hindsight. True.
I apologize

back to the topic all....

That point was lost in your long post about what might or might not happen in 10-20 years and a lot of stuff about stereotypes.

But as you say, the endgame is unknown, so where we are is with a government which has been completely captured by Stonewall and which wants to pass laws which are detrimental to women and girls.

What the endgame is, and whether their dismantling of women's rights is intentional or just due naivety isn't really the point. The point is that they haven't considered the effect of their LGBTQ+ Action Plan on women.

@LemonSwan

For example, a person who looks like a man on the outside may be a woman on the inside

And a person who looks like a women on the outside may be a man on the inside (and/or underneath)

I think they have gone so far round the circle they came back on themselves and didnt even realise.

Good point. It's all so meaningless!

@MonsignorMirth

Haha I know, they basically adopted the GC position without even realising.

@Olderbadger1

LGB get short shrift in the Plan. Seems to be all about the T and the +. Colour me astonished.

Makes much more sense when you realise Lu Thomas is the chair of the 'expert' panel.

twitter.com/luthomas80?lang=en

You've guessed it already.

100women.walesonline.co.uk/

The 'consultation' is spread all over twitter so they'll get a representative cross section of Welsh society.

More context:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-57986732

@WinglessSonglessBird, please do start your own thread as I found your musings interesting

"Changing the rules of society so that it is separated by gender rather than sex puts women and children at risk. As we can see."

Actually, I've not seen that. For instance, I've never even noticed someone I've identified as a transwoman in a women's toilet or changing room, in over fifty years using both, here in the UK and in the USA - much less one who's given a ciswoman any trouble. I've seen what I've assumed to be 'ciswomen' giving other ciswomen trouble many times, though (especially at my school, shudder, horrible memories) ....

I've done a bit of googling on figures and research, but all I've found so far is this: 'Gender Identity Nondiscrimination Laws in Public Accommodations: a Review of Evidence Regarding Safety and Privacy in Public Restrooms, Locker Rooms, and Changing Rooms' ...

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

which states that there's no empirical evidence to support the idea that transwomen are a hassle for ciswomen.

Am I missing something? Is there evidence that transwomen are a menace to ciswomen that I don't know about?

I don't want to stir up a nest of hornets, here. It does seem that there's a certain consensus here on Mumsnet. It's just that what you've said is so counterintuitive to me. I've never thought of transwomen as any threat to ciswomen, whatsoever - and I've never seen it or heard of it.

Please just link me to the evidence, if that'll work for you. Thanks. :)

women deserve privacy from men @Ides.

some women want it

some women need it

men have no place using spaces set aside to preserve the privacy, dignity and safety of women

unless you believe that wearing the clothing stereotypical of the opposite sex actually changes person's sex?

also, you may identify with the harmful gender stereotypes associated with women and therefore consider yourself 'cis', but many women here don't

please respect our gender identities and stop using your term to describe us

I think you are missing all the women who change their behaviour because of men , all the women whose mental health collapses when then can't get the privacy and respect they deserve, In fact you are missing the effect on most women , I guess you don't see them, you don't want to hear them ?

do we think @Ides will come back, or was it a drive by woke scolding?

Ides was the poster who prompted my slight derail (sorry) earlier in the thread by me questioning their assertion that sex and gender can 'match' or 'not match', but then, obviously, and predictably, they have not been able or willing to answer.

(In what way can a body match a gender?
One is a physical being, the other an undefinable feeling.

To insist that one has a matching partner of the other sounds a bit problematic to me.)

I would assume not wanting to explain what they mean by this suggests they are not here to discuss in good faith - as this notion of 'matching sex and gender' underpins most of the discussion here.

Not to mention their breathtaking assumption that you can 'identify' someone else's innate gender in a toilet or changing room!

Am I missing something? Is there evidence that transwomen are a menace to ciswomen that I don't know about?

Am I missing something? Is there any evidence that transwomen are less of a menace to women than other males?

That's what leaves me stupefied 334bu - our First Minister and our entire cabinet seem to be absolutely determined to miss that particular something and absolutely determined to believe that saying you are a woman makes you a woman - and therefore no threat to other women's safety or privacy.

I genuinely don't understand how they became, and remain so deluded.

Please just link me to the evidence, if that'll work for you.

You could start by reading this thread @Ides

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

The thread was started by someone who didn't know much about these issues, and there are a lot of informative posts and links on there.

Am I missing something? Is there evidence that transwomen are a menace to ciswomen that I don't know about

Sex segregated space is in place to allow privacy, dignity and safety to women and children. From males.

Transwomen are males.

Male pattern violence does not decrease when a male identifies as a female.

Around one in five males in the male prison estate are sex offenders. Around one in two transwomen in the prison estate are sex offenders.

So clearly you are missing something

I suggest you cast your research net a little wider than simply a quick Google.

I hope this clears things up for you

Ides was the poster who prompted my slight derail (sorry) earlier in the thread by me questioning their assertion that sex and gender can 'match' or 'not match', but then, obviously, and predictably, they have not been able or willing to answer.

(In what way can a body match a gender?
One is a physical being, the other an undefinable feeling.

To insist that one has a matching partner of the other sounds a bit problematic to me.)

I don't think that's a derail at all. It's fundamental to what the Welsh Government is trying to do.

I eventually found a glossary of terms in one of the consultation documents:
gov.wales/sites/default/files/consultations/2021-07/recommendations-of-the-independent-lgbtq%2B-expert-panel_0.pdf

They give this definition for Gender Identity:
A person’s innate sense of their own gender, whether male, female or something else, which may or may not correspond to the sex assigned at birth.

There is no indication of course of what is meant by 'gender', how it might or might not 'correspond' to someone's sex or why that should matter.

"You could start by reading this thread @Ides

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

The thread was started by someone who didn't know much about these issues, and there are a lot of informative posts and links on there."

Thanks for for being straightforwardly helpful, OldCrone. I shall take a look at that link.