Afghan women forced to wear burqa

[GoodieMoomin]

As the taliban continues to gain ground, the forward looking young women of Afghanistan are having to prepare for some major changes.

I cannot imagine how these women are feeling right now, watching their freedoms slip through their fingers. Honestly, I could cry.

^"My mother says we should buy a burqa. My parents are afraid of the Taliban. My mother thinks that one of the ways she can protect her daughters is to make them wear the burqa,” she says.

“But we have no burqa in our home, and I have no intention of getting one. I don’t want to hide behind a curtain-like cloth. If I wear the burqa, it means that I have accepted the Taliban’s government. I have given them the right to control me. Wearing a chador is the beginning of my sentence as a prisoner in my house. I’m afraid of losing the accomplishments I fought for so hard.”^

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/aug/15/afghan-womens-defiance-and-despair-i-never-thought-id-have-to-wear-a-burqa-my-identity-will-be-lost

Yes, I can’t imagine someone claiming to be “expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman” would include oppressing themselves in a burka and taking corporal or capital punishment for seeking an education.

@mangoontoast Sounds like gender identity ideology is a good thing then... It is for men. I'm not sure it would work for people like the kidnapped schoolgirls in Nigeria, though.

[quote Whataboutye88]**@Warmduscher* I’m asking because having spent a lot of time in Afghanistan it’s not something I’ve seen myself. So I’d like to know more about @LastSummerHere* ‘s partner’s experience because it differs from my own, and I’d like to broaden my knowledge. Is that not allowed?[/quote]
Normally in that situation you would PM her because otherwise your post comes across as disbelieving. Especially as you state you never saw any of the bars she speaks about.

The fact you felt compelled to write that you weren’t disputing her account does suggest you knew that’s how your post would come across.

I find it inconceivable that someone would make a slur with violent sexual overtones on a thread about this issue.

"Normally in that situation you would PM her"

Please don't do this - discussion should be open in the thread, and that includes exploring differing experiences.

It's not the norm elsewhere on MN (indeed it's usually called out as bad form)

Two points:

1. Absence of evidence of [X] is not evidence of the absence of [X]. I've never seen a baby pigeon but I'm pretty sure they exist.

1. There's a huge difference between what goes on in public places and in private residences.

Nor is questioning people's personal accounts in a sceptical way, it often gets people deleted for trollhunting. MN tell you to report if you suspect someone is trolling rather than do it on the thread.

Sounds like gender identity ideology is a good thing then...

WTAF? Now you’re the one being flippant.

But thanks for recognising that people have the motive to identify with the opposite sex for reasons other than gender dysphoria.

My heart goes out to those women. They will be oppressed on the basis of their sex. And it doesn’t surprise me that, like a PP said, that many Afghani men welcome the stripping of their rights. As recent events in the UK show, there are many men here who would feel the same.

Democracy and human rights are so precarious

@meditrina

"Normally in that situation you would PM her"

Please don't do this - discussion should be open in the thread, and that includes exploring differing experiences.

It's not the norm elsewhere on MN (indeed it's usually called out as bad form)

I think if you have to qualify your comment by stating you’re not disputing what another poster said, you know you’re not just “exploring different experiences”.

Third point: Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. If another poster says I've spent six months in Afghanistan and I've seen it, they win.

I can't find it now but there was a terrifying piece about women who've become divorced in Afghanistan.

Under recent rules they could gain employment and rent a house etc. In tbe past they had to have a male do these things for them.

They have been shunned by family and many have lost family.

They will need a male to allow them to do many of these things now and fear for their lives.

Was it this one?

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/aug/13/nowhere-to-go-divorced-afghan-women-in-peril-as-the-taliban-close-in

God that’s terrifying. I wish there were something we could do to help these women.

It’s absolutely valid to discuss this with reference to Western gender ideology, because it’s searingly clear that none of the women in Afghanistan are identifying into their oppression, and nor can they identify out of it.

Pop Eddie Izzard into Kabul and see if he decides he’s in ‘girl mode’ that day. Guessing not.

Femaleness is the root of these women’s oppression, not gender identity. It puts the 21st century identity politics farce into stark relief.

If anyone can point me in the direction of a practical way to help women in Afghanistan, that would be great. Feeling useless and horrified right now.

By the way, not misgendering Izzard there. He’s on record saying both he and she pronouns are fine with him.

goodiemoomin
Women cannot opt out of oppression

mangoontoast
Sounds like gender identity ideology is a good thing then.

Oh dear. Did you say the quiet bit out loud mangoon?

At least you leave us in no doubt.

Sounds like gender identity ideology is a good thing then...

@mangoontoast, I am very interested in your take on this.

What steps can women in Afghanistan take to identify out of their oppression, under the ideology of gender identity?

How do you see 'woman' (as a gender identity) being distinct from 'woman' (as a factual term for an adult human female)? Do you believe that women in the West have historically faced problems such as not being allowed to vote, not being entitled to a mortgage without their husband's signature and being forced to give up their jobs upon marriage due to the fact that they are biologically female or because they have a 'woman' gender identity?

Can all adult human females opt out of the issues identified in the book Invisible Women by adopting Non-binary or 'man' gender identities? How does a 'non-binary' or 'man' gender identity differ from a 'woman' gender identity?

Do you think it is acceptable for women to have to wear the burkha and be denied an education in Afghanistan as long as they have a 'woman' gender identity? However, if a biological female has a 'man' or 'non-binary' gender identity then they should be allowed to access masculine clothing and an education? You say that gender ideology is a good thing, after all.

I am very interested in your thoughts on these points, since you feel the women and girls (biological females?) in Afghanistan would benefit from the introduction of gender ideology.

I confess that I cannot see how gender ideology would do anything to help women and girls, but I am open to hearing a different perspective. To being educated, if you will.

I confess that I cannot see how gender ideology would do anything to help women and girls, but I am open to hearing a different perspective. To being educated, if you will

There would be no women in the whole of Afghanistan if it were possible to opt out

Didn’t one poster on page two mention taking the red pill?

Surely they must have meant it as a alternative means to get out of to sex based oppression otherwise why mention it at all?

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

I confess that I cannot see how gender ideology would do anything to help women and girls, but I am open to hearing a different perspective. To being educated, if you will

There would be no women in the whole of Afghanistan if it were possible to opt out

Well, that's my belief, Rufus.

However, we're always told that we're just a bunch of nasty old bigots on this board, so I'm open to hearing the case for gender ideology as being beneficial to the women of Afghanistan.

The Taliban are promising an 'inclusive government'. It's interesting to see them adopting the language of western liberalism. This really goes to the heart of post modernism doesn't it, the power of language to name things?

However, we're always told that we're just a bunch of nasty old bigots on this board, so I'm open to hearing the case for gender ideology as being beneficial to the women of Afghanistan

Its very good keeping an open mind

Having said that I doubt that poster will be back, ask any of these types of posters a question they can’t answer and they just disappear (or they stay and go on and on about ‘educating yourself’ and refuse to answer any questions)

@mangoontoast please come back and enlighten us on how gender ideology would help the women of Afghanistan

I'm sat on the end of my bed, shaking.

This is one of those situations where we are completely powerless and I can't stop my imagination running and thinking of what's going to happen to these girls and women.

My heart feels crushed.

@Couchbettato

Me too. I’m not ashamed to say I’ve cried today. I think of those young women and the relative freedom that they’ve enjoyed over the past 20 years. Kind intelligent women who have grabbed the opportunity of education, who have taught their daughters they can dare to dream of a happy future. All that taken away by a bunch of violent arrogant tossers who look to a non existent God to justify their enormous sense of entitlement.

It makes me angry and sad in equal measures.