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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Afghan women forced to wear burqa

261 replies

GoodieMoomin · 15/08/2021 18:03

As the taliban continues to gain ground, the forward looking young women of Afghanistan are having to prepare for some major changes.

I cannot imagine how these women are feeling right now, watching their freedoms slip through their fingers. Honestly, I could cry.

^"My mother says we should buy a burqa. My parents are afraid of the Taliban. My mother thinks that one of the ways she can protect her daughters is to make them wear the burqa,” she says.

“But we have no burqa in our home, and I have no intention of getting one. I don’t want to hide behind a curtain-like cloth. If I wear the burqa, it means that I have accepted the Taliban’s government. I have given them the right to control me. Wearing a chador is the beginning of my sentence as a prisoner in my house. I’m afraid of losing the accomplishments I fought for so hard.”^

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/aug/15/afghan-womens-defiance-and-despair-i-never-thought-id-have-to-wear-a-burqa-my-identity-will-be-lost

OP posts:
Unfashionable · 20/08/2021 13:07

We are told that Muslim women in Afghanistan being subjugated by the local patriarchy and forced to wear burkas is a bad thing.

So why are we also told that Muslim women in Bradford, Leicester and Luton being subjugated and forced by the local patriarchy to wear niqabs & burkas is ‘diversity’ to be celebrated? Both can’t be true.

WinglessSonglessBird · 20/08/2021 13:43

@kesstrel

I don’t need to find a connection simply because I am of the same sex to feel empathy to care or acknowledge her struggles

Absolutely, no decent person would have any difficulty "feeling empathy" for anyone in this situation.

The issue being discussed in this thread is, however, that empathy is not enough. What is needed is a political movement to try to stop this kind of thing from happening. Where might such a movement come from, and what might it be based on?

Because the Left really isn't interested. They have demoted women's oppression as an issue, preferring instead to obsess about "anti-colonialism", an anti-colonialism that is based on moral relativism, so that it's actually seen as wrong to talk about the way women are oppressed in other cultures. The refusal to talk about non-white grooming gangs in this country is part and parcel of this.

The same thing is true of left attitudes to women's exploitation via prostitution and porn - nothing to see there, sex positivity, don't talk about it. So the trans issue isn't actually a free-standing issue - it's just one more example of the left's refusal to address the exploitation and oppression of women based on our physical bodies. When women say things like "the Taliban know what a woman is" they aren't just talking about trans, they are referring to the damaging nature of this whole 'let's pretend women's bodies aren't the reason for their oppression" thing that's been going on in the Left for a long time.

Seventies feminism had a concept of "sisterhood" that you don't hear much about any more. But it was basically the idea that all women everywhere shared a vulnerability to discrimination or oppression based on our bodies and the desire of patriarchal males to exploit those bodies. It meant we had a basis to join together and fight against oppression, across cultural divides. Perhaps it might it have made a difference to the situation in Afghanistan today if the Left had promoted that view and fought for it over the last 50 years, instead of deciding that "anti-colonialism" and moral relativism were more important.

This is a good, interesting point about the Left that highlights some interesting psychology about this whole sex/gender and trans thing:

A lot people, myself included, assume (and it's presented this way, even amongst individuals in public, plus media) that the Left is the party of equality. That the Left is anti-racist, is for women, is progressive, etc. And that it is the Right that is racist, anti-woman, traditional in a bad sense, etc. That only racist, misogynistic, money-loving, etc people are on the Right. It seems it's often portrayed that way in primary school and even college, on a whole.

So I think maybe a lot of people see that it's the Left championing all this and automatically think it's therefore good, equal, progressive. ??

I'm moderate, neither one or other, it depends. But I assumed this for a while. Also didn't give it much thought aside from, "of course trans people should have equal rights, what jerk would say no?" Only in past like handful of months, with attention accidentally drawn to the other issues of women needing sex-based spaces etc did I think further. And not cuz I'm a jerk and hate women at all did I not think of that. It just didn't occur to me (maybe I'm dumb, lol, sorry). But I think a lot of people probably have this cover-sheen idea about it.

And it might not be an accident that those pushing to erase woman-only spaces and all that are purposely using the Left, knowing most people won't think more on it cuz the Left is all about equality and are correct when it comes to sex, race, etc cuz those Right people are the racists and misogynists. ?? Obviously that isn't true, but I'm talking with how the media, politicians, generally it's been portrayed for some decades. Plus the linking the whole thing to lesbians, gays, bisexuals.

Think of how if you object you are assumed to be on the Right. Same with other political things--you have an opinion and are put in the Left or Right category by the public, even if it's not true, or if you're neither or both. It's simplistic. I still think part of this is society is extremely obsessed with labels and malfunctions if they don't put people in nice little boxes with bows. Everyone must fit in their perceived/judged boxes of gender, politics, mental illness labels, religion, etc. I think it actually causes more anxiety than it's meant to stop, ironically. I know humans naturally categorize things, but this is on a pathological level. Made worse maybe internet and also the pathologizing of every minute thing by medical/mental health industry. I think it's becoming dehumanizing, all this smaller and smaller cutting people up from every angle to be put in nice little boxes, and then you start doing it to yourself, and others.

Think of how many surveys online their are for identity things: take this quiz to find out if you or a friend are x, y, z, or have this that or the other illness, etc etc. Even down to fun one for kids: what does your favorite disney character say about you. You aren't allowed to be an individual anymore. You have to adhere to labels, and if you don't, you better start. Hence, maybe, an aspect of trans being popular: you don't fit into the woman box? shame, shame get yourself in there or get out of that box asap so society is nice and settled.

wtf, who gives a shit? Just be yourself, labels be damned, and live on. But society can't do this anymore. You can't even date anymore without having to put the person in all kinds of labels and boxes to be scrutinized and fine-combed. It's eroding mental and emotional stability, and I think it's spilling over to the physical side, tbh. Has these 3 characteristics? oh, person must be trans, or have this disorder, or blah blah. Couch psychologists, even to our own selfs. And then when the person objects, they are always in the wrong. So on one hand we have the idea of: I am who I say I am. But then in reality that doesn't play out (aside from trans it seems) cuz people will literally ARGUE with you that they know what labels and boxes you are in. Maybe some of this trans stuff is a reflection and backlash to that, on some level?

everything has been pathologized, and this is the result. Now even something as basic as the sex of a person is pathologized. It's no accident the larger medical community seems to be gleeful to do trans surgeries. Pathology is a business like anything else nowadays, been that way at least since the boom in antidepressants et al. Now half of kids are pathologized from grade school, have 20 disorders, and they identify with the pathology instead of their Self.

I know many people who when you listen to them talk about themselves, or ask them, it is 75% about what mental and physical disorders they have. No joke. We have become a population of personified illnesses, nothing more. And since no one is allowed to question the almighty medical/mental health field and their gods, it will never change. You are not allowed to question "experts."Hmm even your own literal personal life experience is not enough to negate their holiness.

OhWhyNot · 21/08/2021 13:25

kesstrel I think the idea if sisterhood has for sometime been dismissed. Many women from ethnic backgrounds have spoken out about how feminism is really white feminism seen through their eyes. Yes the idea of the left caring more is nonsense always has been. There are many charities trying to help girls and women. I don’t know what the answer is to helping the people of Afghanistan western military being there afforded some protection for some girls and women

EdgeOfACoin yes I am female I have stated my sex and that I have a vagina. The point was that women in Afghanistan (from Afghanistan) can only dream of freedoms we have. I’m not so sure I would be treated as other women I have a British passport my government is trying to do something to help me as terrifying as the situation is as I’m sure many are losing hope. If I were from Afghanistan the government have decided what my fate is. It’s so so far removed from our lives hence why I find some discussion distasteful and show a lack of awareness. As stated before that I can say this free from fear

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 13:33

This reply has been deleted

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Waitwhat23 · 21/08/2021 13:48

God I hope @HexedBoogie 's comment is a clever attempt at sarcasm. 'Bioessentialists'? In this context?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2021 14:35

Check out Hexed in action on the womb implant thread this afternoon. You'll have your answer.

Waitwhat23 · 21/08/2021 15:07

Ah, just had a look. That's quite astounding.

nepeta · 22/08/2021 02:44

@Helleofabore

When women say things like "the Taliban know what a woman is" they aren't just talking about trans, they are referring to the damaging nature of this whole 'let's pretend women's bodies aren't the reason for their oppression" thing that's been going on in the Left for a long time.

This needs repeating.

In fact, let's make the discussion about queer theory as that is actually what we are wanting to discuss. The repercussions of the extent of the adoption of those concepts as proposed by a known paedophile by the name of Foucault.

I have noticed lately that 'trans' gets brought up when in fact the discussion is about the theories that are buttressing the push to prioritise gender over sex when people's oppression due to their sex class is actually the matter being discussed. Those who bring in trans people into those discussions are clearly pushing their own agenda.

Yes, it needs repeating. And female genital mutilation is not done to 'various young children' but to female children. The reason India and China lack so many women and girls is not that there is a seething dislike of people who identify as girls or women, it is the bodies.

Sex trafficking is not based on gender identity but on sex. Most prostitutes are biologically female, almost every punter is biologically male. Rape is carried out by biologically male people to an overwhelming degree. And so on.

Not having a word for the groups of victims in these cases feels to me like our lips are stitched shut.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/08/2021 07:18

Yes, it needs repeating. And female genital mutilation is not done to 'various young children' but to female children. The reason India and China lack so many women and girls is not that there is a seething dislike of people who identify as girls or women, it is the bodies.

Sex trafficking is not based on gender identity but on sex. Most prostitutes are biologically female, almost every punter is biologically male. Rape is carried out by biologically male people to an overwhelming degree. And so on.

Not having a word for the groups of victims in these cases feels to me like our lips are stitched shut.

Yes, it compounds the oppression of these women and girls.

Helleofabore · 22/08/2021 09:32

Because just like you, the Taliban are transphobic bioessentialists who do not care for or recognize their victims' self-identification?

Let’s unpick this a bit. Because as usual it is wrong on many aspects. We see people throwing around bioessentialism when the word is completely the opposite to what so many on this thread, on this discussion board actually believe. The posters who do this, get it from spending far too much time entrenched in social media platforms where they never fact check for themselves. That they repeat it says so much about them.

I don’t know any poster’s on this thread that believe in any way that a person’s personality, their role outside of reproduction, their career choices etc is based on being ‘female’.

We are also not transphobic for discussing the negative interaction of the rights being demanded by trans lobby groups.

And again with the overly emotional manipulation to force people to be support someone’s identity when that identity is not based on material reality at all. A male who labels themselves a transwoman, is a transwoman. That is accepted by many.

Hexed believes that extreme cosmetic surgery is enough to change sex. On other threads, it becomes apparent they are fully immersed in some academics’ philosophical theories. But those theories completely lack any solid foundation in biology or medicine. And yes, there will always be those academics from those fields who will add their voice. But the practical realities will always make those ‘theories’ and not ‘reality’.

So basically that sentence is complete bollocks.

Keep posting Hexed because you do more for encouraging readers to go and do their own fact checking for themselves than you convince any reader who is not as similarly entrenched as you.

There are many many links in the Break it Down thread. Many recent posts are to studies and papers that crumble those weak ideological foundations.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Including the Endocrinologists statement that sometimes sex has to be acknowledged for the best treatment paths and care for trans people. And The EHRC statement that women are not transphobic for discussing their own needs and acknowledging that conflicts exist with the current demands from activists.

I look forward to Hexed posting the links to support their assertions.

ArabellaScott · 22/08/2021 10:14

Just like you, the Taliban are transphobic bioessentialists who do not care for or recognize their victims' self-identification?

Can I just check, you are calling the women on here, and/or feminists 'just like the Taliban', is that correct?!

Holy moly.

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