Afghan women forced to wear burqa

[GoodieMoomin]

As the taliban continues to gain ground, the forward looking young women of Afghanistan are having to prepare for some major changes.

I cannot imagine how these women are feeling right now, watching their freedoms slip through their fingers. Honestly, I could cry.

^"My mother says we should buy a burqa. My parents are afraid of the Taliban. My mother thinks that one of the ways she can protect her daughters is to make them wear the burqa,” she says.

“But we have no burqa in our home, and I have no intention of getting one. I don’t want to hide behind a curtain-like cloth. If I wear the burqa, it means that I have accepted the Taliban’s government. I have given them the right to control me. Wearing a chador is the beginning of my sentence as a prisoner in my house. I’m afraid of losing the accomplishments I fought for so hard.”^

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/aug/15/afghan-womens-defiance-and-despair-i-never-thought-id-have-to-wear-a-burqa-my-identity-will-be-lost

But that's the point - you can choose to do that - nothing you're saying there is particularly unusual (although I would have trouble talking to you, as I find it very difficult when I can't see someone's face)

These women have the opposite problem - if they try to go out dressed as I do (and personally I feel safer when I can move and see freely), then they are punished and abused. It's still women being abused.

The women in the Taliban controlled Afghanistan of the 90s were arguably some of the, collectively, most controlled and violently abused women in history. They were also the most covered up. It didn't protect them it was part and parcel of their abuse.

I have been abused by men. It had fuck all to do with how I dressed. The worst abuse I ever suffered was from my XH. Throughout most of our relationship he had very little sexual interest in me. My attractiveness when we met or my overweight, tired, worn out appearance by the end of our marriage meant nothing to him. I was a sop to his ego, something that validated him in someway that he enjoyed.

Not having the freedom to dress as I like wouldn't protect me from anything. I dress mainly for comfort. I'll wear multiple layers when I'm cold, I'll wear crop tops and shorts when it's very hot. And leggings and t-shirts/jumpers in between. If I have any aesthetic, it's that I quite like my muscularity to be visible, because I'm proud of my muscular arms and think muscular women should be visible and normalised as it's healthier for us, especially as we go into menopause and beyond.

I can't change the fact that men are stronger than me. I can acknowledge that most violence against women is domestic and be very careful about who I become involve with. I believe that my "style" as an athletic, muscular woman may send a message to weak minded men that I'm not interested in them or dressing for them. But I can't guarantee that. All I can do is live and dress as I love, for me.

When clothing choices are discussed in terms of women being 'safer' from sexual assault - I always think about this exhibition (trigger warning - upsetting) - www.boredpanda.com/what-were-you-wearing-sexual-assault-art-exhibition/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

I can assure you a hijab or niqab or burkha has never stopped men from harassing and raping women. Never.

I have been in touch with one Afghan women's rights activist. She has zero patience with the Western posts-modernist ideas or those feminists who refuse to say anything at all about, say,, the Taliban or ISIS in case they look like Western white colonisers. She is all about poor treatment of women by sex. She did mention, though, how much she loves feeling the wind in her hair. That is not allowed when a burqa is the obligatory dress for women. Also, most jobs are not possible to do wearing one and even carrying groceries and a child or two in tow is almost impossible.

I fear that the 1990s situation will come back. Women lost essentially all rights, couldn't go out without a male guardian,, couldn't study or work and so on.

The oppression of women has a material ground. It is based on the body and what it can be used for. Erasing the body the way the gender identity theory is doing will not stop that oppression at all but could make it very difficult to address as our words are being erased together with the female body.

Have a read at this. It’s awesome and pulls no punches

www.thenational.scot/news/world/19522429.queer-theory-world-will-not-help-women-afghanistan/?ref=twtrec

Littlebrowndog

Just read that on twitter, and came here to see if soeone had posted it.

fantastic letter, so passionate and clear

That letter was a post on Mumsnet the other day wasn't it? It's brilliant.

I find the letter nauseating

I am not her because we both have a vagina I can feel deeply empathetic becuase I don’t want anyone to suffer and I know women and girls will more so in Afghanistan now

Yes I have struggles at times becuase I am a women and because I was a girl who has been abused

But I can’t not identify myself with the girls and women of Afghanistan because I am a woman. I don’t and have never lived in a society that fear rules everything absolutely everything I do from childhood to adulthood

I’m not comfortable with the trans/queer/self id even being mentioned when we talk about the plight of these women and girls

Posters will often be ridiculed for mentioning that men suffer too. We can all suffer but ffs it’s seems so indulgent to be somehow bring this discussion into what is going on in Afghanistan which is absolutely hell for the majority of the population

@OhWhyNot

I find the letter nauseating

I am not her because we both have a vagina I can feel deeply empathetic becuase I don’t want anyone to suffer and I know women and girls will more so in Afghanistan now

Yes I have struggles at times becuase I am a women and because I was a girl who has been abused

But I can’t not identify myself with the girls and women of Afghanistan because I am a woman. I don’t and have never lived in a society that fear rules everything absolutely everything I do from childhood to adulthood

I’m not comfortable with the trans/queer/self id even being mentioned when we talk about the plight of these women and girls

Posters will often be ridiculed for mentioning that men suffer too. We can all suffer but ffs it’s seems so indulgent to be somehow bring this discussion into what is going on in Afghanistan which is absolutely hell for the majority of the population

I must admit, when I first saw that post on MN a few days ago, I was a bit uncomfortable with the 'she is me and I am her' part, because with the privilege I enjoy living in the UK, how can I possibly identify with the hell that these women are currently experiencing?

But I think the point is that, as the reader says, it's only luck that I as a woman was born in the UK. And if I were born elsewhere, the material reality of my female body, a body that I can never identify out of, would mean that I would be subject to all manner or evil and oppression. And that's what connects us, the inability to 'identify' out of our bodies.

I think this is why people are linking gender ideology with what is happening to women in Afghanistan - because it brings into such sharp relief the oppression that women face based on nothing more than the material reality of being female. That's it. And when you see women here, women who are only liberated because of the hard work of women who have gone before them, calling women who point out the reality of biological sex 'TERF floaters who just won't flush' and similar, it just makes you think that those women are so very privileged that they can hurl those sorts of insults at other women. It's offensive to all those women, not just in Afghanistan, but all around the world and throughout history who have suffered oppression based on their biological bodies, to claim that biological sex doesn't matter, or that its just an abstract concept. When you see the likes of Nicola Sturgeon talking about the plight of 'women in Afghanistan' everyone knows she is talking about those with female bodies, not those who 'identify as women'. Including her. And yet, she will shout 'transphobia' at anyone who dares suggest that it's biology that is the basis of women's oppression?

The only reason we, as females, are liberated in the West is because of the hard work of the women who came before us. Not 'males who identify as women', women. And they didn't make change by simply claiming that biological sex just doesn't exist. Yes there were women in history who pretended to be men in order to be able to do certain jobs, but structural change was never going to happen that way.

And I think we forget as women in the UK, just how relatively recently we have even had these rights - a man could legally rape his wife until the 1990s!!! And what is going on in Afghanistan now is a reminder of just how precarious the rights that are given to those with female bodies actually are.

Sorry I have completely rambled there, but I hope some of that makes sense?

I have a feeling that letter won't go down well on Twitter because of the 'she is me and I am her' part, but then people on Twitter aren't really known for thinking too deeply about things...

I understand what is being written of course it won’t go down well on Twitter bingo

We have not been born in Afghanistan or the many other countries that women do not have our freedoms that is not torture for us just lick (I have lived in such a country and my father is from one)

The she is me I am her is such an indulgent western privileged view and provocative when we don’t need to be they know exactly the reaction they shall cause and what will be argued about and it would be about the horrendous hell that women and girls are suffering in Afghanistan.

Do you think these women (if they had the time to dwell of such matters) would see is as the same way because we have a vagina.

It’s using this terrifying situation in an argument (which I fully support) but find it incredibly distasteful and indulgent in this context

I understand your arguments, OhWhyNot. I believe a better way of expressing the underlying point is that the subjugation of people who are female-bodied and/or look female-bodied to others is not something which has happened in only a few countries in the past (or happens in the present): It has been pretty close to universal until quite recently, and even today the hard-won rights in the Western countries may be more fragile than they look. They were also won much more recently than most young people seem to realise.

So many of us are indeed aware of the fact that the only condition for someone to be put into that particular subjugated group,, circumstances permitting, is to be female (or appear that to others).

So in that sense many women all over the world probably have a different visceral reaction to what is going on in Afghanistan than men might. Both men and women can feel great empathy and sadness about the events, perhaps anger at those who let them happen or want them to happen, but the additional fear reaction is more likely to be female.

I've seen this a lot on Twitter too regarding "the Taliban know who women are".

Am I being unreasonable to think it's inappropriate to use the horrific situation in Afghanistan for the benefit of gender critical discussion?

Yes the gender critical debate has two sides and each side can have their say, but I think what's happening in Afghanistan just isn't any comparison whatsoever.

MargaritaPie

Someone will come along with a long rambling post informing you what the comparisons are

I personally could not look a women in the eyes from Afghanistan who is having to make choices about survival for children She is me and I am Her

Maybe I don’t feel feminism enough

It’s unbelievably self indulgent and shows a complete lack of awareness of our privilege to bring in this argument

Interesting thread, especially the framing of the burka as an instrument to protect women when actually it's a form of violence agaisnt them.

I can't get my head around the idea of such oppression of women through sharia law, intricate details of what women can and can't do... When on period etc... Checking beds etc....

It's just a mysogenistic dream.. It could be focused on anything but it's women who are the sole crazy focus and detail on controlling them by an utter maniac???

The whole thing based on the premise that men can't control their urges and if they do act in an uncontrolled way... It's the woman fault!!

Everything titled agaisnt the female she can't win!!

@MargaritaPie

I've seen this a lot on Twitter too regarding "the Taliban know who women are".

Am I being unreasonable to think it's inappropriate to use the horrific situation in Afghanistan for the benefit of gender critical discussion?

Yes the gender critical debate has two sides and each side can have their say, but I think what's happening in Afghanistan just isn't any comparison whatsoever.

Someone mentioned on here that this is like the whole "now is not the time to bring up gun control" when there is a mass shooting in the US. It is very similar.

Women in Afghanistan are oppressed on the basis of their sex. Do you think a single one would immediately be allowed education if they suddenly identified as 'non-binary'?

I am not sure of the whole 'I am her and she is me' thing - I tend to stay away from those sorts of mantras.

But yeah, if I went to live in Afghanistan, I fully expect that I would be treated as a woman in that country. Because I am an adult human female. Just like when my female flight attendant friend went to Saudi Arabia a few years ago, she and her female colleagues needed to be chaperoned by a male colleague when they were out and about. Their western background didn't stop them from being treated like Saudi women in that sense.

There are lots of threads about the plight of the women in Afghanistan that don't focus on this topic - they are over in Feminism Chat. Please join them. There are discussions on the most practical way to offer support to those women left behind. But this thread is about the absurdity of trans ideology when applied to countries like Afghanistan.

Give us the arguments as to why we are wrong. Don't just tell us that discussing the subject at all is in bad taste and we shouldn't mention it.

I personally could not look a women in the eyes from Afghanistan who is having to make choices about survival for children She is me and I am Her

I, personally, would feel disrespectful not looking in her eyes and acknowledging her situation and her courage.

How you interpret ‘she is me and I am her’ is personal. I think that phrase can mean many things and has layer upon layer of meaning to people.

Did you also ever consider the background of the poster who wrote that post?

I find it strange that you have made your point but then say you couldn’t even respect women there enough to look them in the eyes. Because that is how I interpreted your post.

I've seen this a lot on Twitter too regarding "the Taliban know who women are".

Am I being unreasonable to think it's inappropriate to use the horrific situation in Afghanistan for the benefit of gender critical discussion?

Yes the gender critical debate has two sides and each side can have their say, but I think what's happening in Afghanistan just isn't any comparison whatsoever.

What is the comparison you believe people who are seeking to strengthen sexual based rights for all females are actually making?

What part of the discussion that females need sex based rights and sex based oppression do you not agree with?

Or is this yet another post from you to shame women discussing any basis of sex based oppression and our need for recognition that sex should, at times, have priority over gender when sex matters?

Also, could a mtf transitioner genuinely look an Afghan woman in the eye and say 'She is me and I am her?' Someone who never, under any circumstances, even if they had been born and raised in Afghanistan, would have been forced into a marriage with an older man at the age of 12? Someone who never would have been treated differently because they had their period that week? Someone who had been born with a male body, and could take advantage of the privileges conferred on them because of that male body?

I think biological females everywhere recognise that in the West we are privileged by virtue of the culture we happened to be born into. So yes, in that sense I think it is legitimate to look at women in Afghanistan and say 'there but for the grace of God go I...'

I don't think mtf transitioners can do the same.

Does anyone here think that they can?

Becuae some don’t agree or find it distasteful the trans argument is being bandied around in such a way is shaming women

Or just some women disagreeing with other women and having the freedom to do this (and not be living in fear of someone knocking on our door and giving us a beating or worse because we have aired our views)

Oh please that we are able to discuss this this and not agree on a thread about women and girls who no have no voice is quite a statement

Never did I imply I wouldn’t respect any women or would not be able to to look her in the eyes and acknowledge her pain but that is all I would need to do I don’t need to find a connection simply because I am of the same sex to feel empathy to care or acknowledge her struggles

My life my freedoms is a dream to them and sadly that is all and that is absolutely tragic

My life my freedoms is a dream to them and sadly that is all and that is absolutely tragic

Only because you live in the West (assuming you are female). If you lived in Afghanistan, you would be treated exactly the same as all the other women.

OhWhyNot

If I have misunderstood your statement I personally could not look a women in the eyes from Afghanistan who is having to make choices about survival for children She is me and I am Her, then I apologise.

Obviously, I was confused by what you meant.

I also point out that I have not mentioned 'shame' in my post in answer to you. I have to the other poster, because they have a history of this intentional style of posting.

I don’t need to find a connection simply because I am of the same sex to feel empathy to care or acknowledge her struggles

Absolutely, no decent person would have any difficulty "feeling empathy" for anyone in this situation.

The issue being discussed in this thread is, however, that empathy is not enough. What is needed is a political movement to try to stop this kind of thing from happening. Where might such a movement come from, and what might it be based on?

Because the Left really isn't interested. They have demoted women's oppression as an issue, preferring instead to obsess about "anti-colonialism", an anti-colonialism that is based on moral relativism, so that it's actually seen as wrong to talk about the way women are oppressed in other cultures. The refusal to talk about non-white grooming gangs in this country is part and parcel of this.

The same thing is true of left attitudes to women's exploitation via prostitution and porn - nothing to see there, sex positivity, don't talk about it. So the trans issue isn't actually a free-standing issue - it's just one more example of the left's refusal to address the exploitation and oppression of women based on our physical bodies. When women say things like "the Taliban know what a woman is" they aren't just talking about trans, they are referring to the damaging nature of this whole 'let's pretend women's bodies aren't the reason for their oppression" thing that's been going on in the Left for a long time.

Seventies feminism had a concept of "sisterhood" that you don't hear much about any more. But it was basically the idea that all women everywhere shared a vulnerability to discrimination or oppression based on our bodies and the desire of patriarchal males to exploit those bodies. It meant we had a basis to join together and fight against oppression, across cultural divides. Perhaps it might it have made a difference to the situation in Afghanistan today if the Left had promoted that view and fought for it over the last 50 years, instead of deciding that "anti-colonialism" and moral relativism were more important.

When women say things like "the Taliban know what a woman is" they aren't just talking about trans, they are referring to the damaging nature of this whole 'let's pretend women's bodies aren't the reason for their oppression" thing that's been going on in the Left for a long time.

This needs repeating.

In fact, let's make the discussion about queer theory as that is actually what we are wanting to discuss. The repercussions of the extent of the adoption of those concepts as proposed by a known paedophile by the name of Foucault.

I have noticed lately that 'trans' gets brought up when in fact the discussion is about the theories that are buttressing the push to prioritise gender over sex when people's oppression due to their sex class is actually the matter being discussed. Those who bring in trans people into those discussions are clearly pushing their own agenda.

I would also like to hear what people who seek to shame women for discussing the effect of priortising sex over gender have to say in defence of the Michel Foucault and his motivations.