Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!

[HermioneKipper]

My thread asking about transwomen/transitioning/penises has been deleted.

Why are we not allowed to discuss this? It’s a genuine question and extremely relevant to the debate about transwomen entering female spaces.

There was no abuse of trans people that I could see aside from a few people attempting to derail by saying that they couldn’t see why women might be concerned about having to share their space!

This isn’t right

Facts are not generalisations.

I have always thought that the threads are deliberately sabotaged anyway, that the posts are not genuine in the first place, because generally most people are not that stupid firstly, and secondly it is a very convenient way to close down the thread (and therefore the informative content)

You can tell the difference in 99%of transwomen. Some young people less so.

@IsitM

But autogynephilia IS the main motivation for transition for SOME men. That isn’t a generalisation it’s just the truth, and one that many women are not aware of so we should be allowed to discuss it.

That's what I'm trying to establish. It's clearly a motivation.

If you can't be specific and you can't generalise, it's very difficult to talk about.

I guess, at the end of the day, as we are told we can absolutely talk about it, we just need to say some instead of many?

@YetAnotherSpartacus

For those wondering what Spartacus is - please see here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716595-TransAgenda-BullShit-The-I-am-Spartacus-Thread

I'm not sure that this is the original, but it is one of many.

Thank you for this thread, it's fasinating to read the strong women who were sounding the alarm about this years ago. Shamefully, I had no idea until recently.

heathspeedwell
I still vividly remember how shocked I was when I first discovered that the vast majority of transwomen retain their penis. I felt like my sympathy had been exploited.

Yes, exactly. I felt like my goodwill had been exploited and now we are being played. Now I'm just angry.

I still don't understand how handling your penis several times a day doesn't trigger dysphoria but someone using the wrong pronoun is literal violence.

We're not supposed to understand, we just supposed to capitulate, to submit to someone else's version of reality. It's nothing more than a power play.

@JustAnotherPoster00

Trust me, we can always tell

Can we?

Well if you can't, you may need to go to specsavers.

Can we not let certain posters derail this conversation between us and HQ.

I don't want to be goaded into intemperate language, whilst I've got this opportunity.

@stepupandbecounted

I have always thought that the threads are deliberately sabotaged anyway, that the posts are not genuine in the first place, because generally most people are not that stupid firstly, and secondly it is a very convenient way to close down the thread (and therefore the informative content)

Like the attempts on this one, for example?

@JustAnotherPoster00

I would not feel safe in a changing room or on a hospital ward with people with a penis.

Without being able to peer in their underwear how would you know?

Because we know. Men’s bodies are nearly always very different to women’s.

In the case of hospital wards we shouldn’t need to “peer in underwear” - it should be being recorded when they are admitted.

As for changing rooms and toilets, frankly they shouldn’t be using them off their own bat. If they feel like a woman they shouldn’t want to make other women feel unsafe.

A lot of women are scared by men with damn good reason.

This highlights the need for a third space hugely

@Datun

Can we not let certain posters derail this conversation between us and HQ.

I don't want to be goaded into intemperate language, whilst I've got this opportunity.

Sorry, my bad!

Yes exactly you can see the derailing has already started notbad

Without being able to peer in their underwear how would you know?

It's a mystery that has defeated the best minds of a generation Alternatively:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3660642-Taking-a-sword-to-the-toilets

[quote HermioneKipper]@onelittlefrog

“People on that thread were talking about whether they felt it was permissable for a human being to keep a part of their own bodily anatomy.“

That’s not what we were talking about. We were asking why some people felt they could keep a penis and access women’s protected spaces.

That is an extremely valid concern.

Having been threatened by men numerous times myself I do not want to be in a vulnerable position/space with a man who has a penis. Eg a changing room.

Why does a transwoman’s right to enter a female space trump my right to feel safe?[/quote]
If you are born in the wrong body, no matter how much body dysmorphia you have, it's still a hell of a thing to have major surgery which involves mutilating that body and cutting parts of it off.

That is a huge thing to come to terms with, on top of the emotional and mental difficulties of being trans in the first place. Many people wish for nothing more than a body that represents the gender they feel they are inside, but is can be very difficult go through with the surgery for a multitude of reasons. Health reasons, long waiting lists, finances, ad infinitum.

I am not absolutely saying that anybody's rights trump anybody else's, or that women's rights don't matter. I understand the difficulties around changing rooms and female only spaces. I am a woman myself and not trans, although I know people who are.

What I notice is that people tend to get extremely passionate and upset about this topic, and the the truth is it is a very nuanced and difficult topic on both sides. Healthy and respectful debate is absolutely essential, but that should include trans people and it should be a conversation, not a shouting match.

There is a lot of hate around this on mumsnet in particular which I find incredibly unpleasant. Whenever I comment anything that is remotely from a trans perspective I am accused of hating women and being anti-feminist. That is not a healthy debate and it's not listening, it is just shouting someone down until they give up.

Which I am doing now, because my lunch break is almost over and I want to eat my sandwich.

All this "peering into underwear" is nonsense! Posters have told you we dont need or want to!! to do this!!! Stop it please!!!
I would not feel totally safe either because you just don't know who is safe and who isn't.
Women can tell, because we're 'programmed' to. I can't understand why any woman would argue for men in women's spaces. You can bet they don't appreciate all the trans ally stuff either. They're probably laughing at you.....

Is anybody able to explain to me why trans people aren't considered to have body dysmorphia? As I said on the deleted thread, I always believed that that was the case? When did it change?

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet
I and other Mumsnetters like me pay our annual subs. I pay them to help the site and to help others, who come here, who cannot.

Do you not think that we all deserve a bit of time and energy to moderate posts rather than delete entire threads on such topics? After all this is now a voluntary fee paying service.

It is well known that this is the last large site, where women are allowed to post about their fears and concerns on this subject. I have chosen to pay for the site specifically for this reason. So yes, I’m really angered and feel silenced once again.

Like the attempts on this one, for example?

Disagreement does not a derailment make

@JustAnotherPoster00

I would not feel safe in a changing room or on a hospital ward with people with a penis.

Without being able to peer in their underwear how would you know?

Query. When on the dating circuit, did you need to peer into people's underwear to know who to ask out? If you did, it's understandable why you're asking this.

If you didn't though, then your post seems a little silly.

Disagreement does not a derailment make

But the end result is the same, the thread gets deleted. Perfect for those trying to silence the debate every single time.

It would be fabulous if we could disagree confidently, and the thread was not derailed by an agenda, but that is not the case as most of us know.

Then report their posts and if MNHQ agree with you and theyll be deleted

This is the difference about the intentions of posters.

Why would we just get a post deleted when we can point out the deficiencies of that post? The regulars who post on this board are not those that need to have language filtered to such a degree. We actually welcome poster's who can discuss their point of view with 'civility' (a MNHQ term), but even those who are only seeking to denigrate and shame make their intentions clear to the many readers of these threads.

And if they can not bring anything more to their posts other than those attempts to shame and silence, that is very clear to readers. The readers can see there is little substance other what may amount to emotive manipulation and lack of critical thinking. I'm not sure FWR regulars feel facts, statistics, studies and reports are 'unsafe' and 'threatening' in any way. I, for one, welcome links and informative posts from all points of view. I am sure many others do too.

So, no. Strangely, FWR regulars don't report all the posts that fall foul of the guidelines.

But those making generalised negative statements about the board and the people who post here, do often get picked up by the moderator team and deleted.

@JustAnotherPoster00

No male bodied people should be allowed to enter female spaces, no matter how they present or 'pass'.

Without being able to peer in their underwear how would you know?

One would hope that male bodied people could be trusted to respect women's boundaries.

If they are unwelcome in a female space, they should refrain from entering.

A male who does not respect being told 'No thank you, this space is for females' is de facto a male who does not respect women's rights & boundaries, & therefore cannot be trusted where women are vulnerable.

If an occasional male bodied person accesses female spaces unobserved, then that is probably inevitable, but still regrettable, & they are behaving inappropriately.

We don't have to say it's ok with us, when it isn't.

If you are born in the wrong body

You are out of step with the ideology, it was realised that that concept had to be dumped some time ago:

We recently posted that ‘no child is born in the wrong body’, which is our broad position as a charity.

mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/do-you-still-use-the-phrase-born-in-the-wrong-body/

I thought that the 'born in the wrong body' statement had been thrown out???
As for 'cutting things off, it seems to be that this is something teen girls are encouraged to do

FWIW I found MN through the Spartacus threads. I felt so angry, lonely and isolated in a world where I had to believe that particular angry, violent and nasty young men (Antifa) who identified as queer, trans, or as women, were 'not men'. I googled and a phrase was picked up from this thread on MN - I joined that second - in fact, I think that I posted under my original user name on one of those threads. Ironically, we could say more then than we can now.

I reiterate. Still Spartacus in name and nature.

Anyone here who would struggle to guess what sex Alex is?

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/there-no-legal-bars-woman-10297113