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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Have been called transphobic by my trans child

254 replies

Firevixen · 26/07/2021 17:23

My trans boy child just called me transphobic because I said they couldn't have their boyfriend over for a sleepover because they have a penis. My DC is 14 and the BF is 15.

They asked me what about if they had a transgirl stay over and I said that would be a no too because they have a penis.

So my DC thinks I'm transphobic and that I think that they are going to go around having sex with everyone.

I'm not being unreasonable am I? no one in their right mind would let two underage teenagers of the opposite sex, who are dating, have a sleepover, would they?

OP posts:
Beamur · 28/07/2021 13:58

surely parenting teenagers is all about potentially embarrassing and awkward conversations, involving cocks, fannies, bras, periods, erections, pregnancy, drugs, relationships, boundaries etc. These topics can't be avoided because they make teenagers squirm

This! We should be able to have frank and honest conversations with our kids and not shy away if it gets a bit embarrassing.
It's a dereliction of parenting to simply assume our kids know if all. They probably don't and it's also entirely possible they're looking at rubbish on the internet.
I also want my kids to be empowered enough and confident enough to feel comfortable with the simple act of naming their own genitals!
If you cannot do that how difficult is it going to be to have conversations with sexual partners or with your GP if you need to?

DdraigGoch · 28/07/2021 14:01

if you read my post properly you will see that i am advising the OP to simply ban sleepovers for her child with people they are dating.
@fucknuckle I take it that you've never met a teenager. They're awkward, argumentative sods, you know.

"Oh, we're not dating, he's just a friend"

Sleepyquest · 28/07/2021 14:02

Not the point but why oh why are there so many trans teenagers Sad

RedDogsBeg · 28/07/2021 14:23

fucknuckle all anyone ever goes on about here is lady dicks when referring to transgender women, which i would suggest is more offensive and body-shaming than me saying that the OP’s child

The term lady dick was brought into usage by transwomen and TRAs, most notably when sending threats of sexual violence towards JKR in particular and women in general who refuse to bow down to their toxic ideology. Lady dick is not and never has been a term thought up by GC women either on this board or elsewhere, so take your accusations of body-shaming back to the people who invented the term and have used it as a weapon of abuse.

Do please get your facts right otherwise it makes you look very silly and undermines the entirety of your diatribe.

However, I suspect you are only too well aware of where the term originated from, who uses it and how they use it.

Helleofabore · 28/07/2021 14:29

Not sure why you brought penis/no penis into it

Maybe because the language needed so as not to distress a dysphoric teen leaves parents with these choices:

Avoid using girl/woman/female or respective male sex terms so as not to highlight birth sex.

or

Use the current mode of inclusive language of reducing humans to their body parts and functions so that those with dysphoria feel that they are not being misgendered or bothered in any way.

The second means accepting the usage of 'vagina havers', 'cervix owners', 'vulva people', bleeders, pregnant people, but it seems that there are plenty of people who might be supporting this option telling OP off for mentioning 'penis'. And I wonder if they can see the misogny and hypocrisy in that?

As we can see on this very thread, parents are being told it is transphobic either way. In fact, one poster last night advised parents to not discuss genitals (generically, of others, or of the child's) with the child/teen unless that child/teen brings it up. (Which is pretty irresponsible parenting in my book )

Helleofabore · 28/07/2021 14:30

undermines the entirety of your diatribe.

I think incoherence and contradiction did that well enough.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/07/2021 14:36

Helleofabore

That poster said no need to get all specific about cocks and fannies. everyone knows what goes where about a... 14 year old girl.

I would be very dubious of taking their advice in this area, as 14 year olds are commonly dangerously clueless, and they really can't be presumed to know it all already. When and where would they have learnt it?

Chickenyhead · 28/07/2021 14:45

TRA: Suck my lady dick
GC woman: ladies aka women don't have dicks.

Simples

RedDogsBeg · 28/07/2021 14:46

That poster said no need to get all specific about cocks and fannies. everyone knows what goes where about a... 14 year old girl.

Cocks shouldn't be going anywhere near fannies of 14 year old girls, has the poster forgotten there is an age of consent?

Agree 14 year olds can be dangerously clueless whilst thinking they know everything about everything.

Helleofabore · 28/07/2021 14:55

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Helleofabore

That poster said no need to get all specific about cocks and fannies. everyone knows what goes where about a... 14 year old girl.

I would be very dubious of taking their advice in this area, as 14 year olds are commonly dangerously clueless, and they really can't be presumed to know it all already. When and where would they have learnt it?

Yes Potholes.

You and I both know this.

I am aiming for understatement in saying it is 'irresponsible parenting' to keep from being deleted or getting the thread deleted. I can assure everyone that what I am writing is not quite the same as what is being said in my head. Grin

And I also agree that assuming that 14 year olds know 'all about sex' is very dangerous indeed. Just as dangerous as assuming that they know all about consent or have the confidence to actually state that they do NOT consent.

There is so very much wrong with posts like no need to get all specific about cocks and fannies. everyone knows what goes where. It is breathtaking how dangerous thinking like this actually is. Yet, people feel it is righteous to post it in their arrogance about their own superiority.

Helleofabore · 28/07/2021 14:58

Just as dangerous as assuming that they know all about consent or have the confidence to actually state that they do NOT consent.

And by this, I also refer to overcoming female socialisation to be able to state confidently that they do not consent, and that they aren't then coerced into doing something that they do not want.

Something that identifying as a transboy does not change.

mollythemeerkat · 28/07/2021 15:03

*Mrs Wooster" - trying to put a coherent argument with people who are being completely knuckleheaded and just want to wind you up, is very tiring. I`m surprised people on this board dont lose it more often. I hope you felt better for voicing your frustration - sometimes it really does help!

ChickenpoxQ · 28/07/2021 15:09

@Sleepyquest

Not the point but why oh why are there so many trans teenagers Sad
It's cool. It's the new anorexic and/or goth.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/07/2021 15:28

Yes, we can see that in this thread.

I was absolutely horrified by the casual assumption last night that if* underage female children don't want to have vaginal intercourse because of distress around their genitals, that will be enough to ensure it doesn't happen.

Young females are coerced and emotionally blackmailed into sexual activity they do not want all the time! Whether it's because the young female doesn't feel ready to take that next step in the relationship or they wish to avoid any risk of pregnancy, some male partners think a female No is the opening of negotiations, not a complete sentence.

Young females who feel distress around their bodies are just as vulnerable and deserving of protection from any potential for sexual coercion as any other child, surely?

*Note. Some transmen do not feel distress about their genital areas.

RedDogsBeg · 28/07/2021 15:47

Whether it's because the young female doesn't feel ready to take that next step in the relationship or they wish to avoid any risk of pregnancy, some male partners think a female No is the opening of negotiations, not a complete sentence.

Oh yes, the infamous If you really loved me you would or all the other girls are doing it or what are you, frigid?, comments that are as old as the hills and still in use today.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/07/2021 16:04

RedDogsBeg

This has reminded me of something I read years ago on a concerned transwoman's blog, who said she had seen transmen being targeted for sexual abuse.

blog post

Before I went on testosterone, I (thought I) became good friends with a trans woman. We met through the trans activist group on campus, and we started hanging out outside of the group because we seemed to have so much in common, despite the fact that “she” was about 35 and I was 20. I had been socially transitioning for about a year. “She” had been on estrogen for a few months, or something less than a year I think. We talked about trans issues a lot. “She” validated my pain over my parents disowning me and how it felt to be misgendered all the time and listened to me when I was suicidal. I saw us as having mirrored problems even though I realize now that we were in two very different situations. I trusted “her.”

At some point in the friendship, Z (the MTF) started sending me explicit texts letting me know that “she” was interested in me. I had no idea how to deal with that, so I just deflected “her” advances. I assumed “she” would stop after multiple “no”s, excuses, and a complete lack of interest in anything beyond friendship. I was afraid to be too harsh, because I didn’t want to hurt “her” feelings. I didn’t want to ruin our friendship. I couldn’t risk losing my main source of support, the one person who “understood” my problems and treated me like a man. No one else offered the same level of sympathy for my transsexuality, not even my girlfriend. No one else was willing to drive me an hour to the only other trans meeting in the area, or stay with me when my dysphoria got so painful I thought I needed to die.

I called myself pansexual at the time, because that’s practically mandatory from inside the Gender Fog, and I also had been taught to see Z as nothing other than a woman. I felt guilty for my wary gut feelings about Z’s sex and had to overcompensate by validating “her” identity through trust that wasn’t earned and just giving “her” the benefit of the doubt. Not only did I have to treat “her” as a woman, but I had to navigate the friendship as a man would. There was no room for feeling threatened or listening to my feelings or for risking being transphobic. My subconscious unease about trying to see Z as female was negated by the fact that I thought gender shouldn’t matter and therefore attraction was based on the person, not the genitals. Either way, there was no way to rule Z out of being a potential date without my politics being questioned. If “she” was not at least a potential sexual partner for me, then I was a transmisogynist. Seeing this person as a woman meant not seeing Z as a threat, and even seeing myself as the person in a position of power because I identified as a man.

One night, Z came over after the trans group. My girlfriend was at the library and I was expecting her back sometime soon. Z cornered me multiple times, moving in, trying to kiss me. I kept telling Z that my girlfriend would be back soon and that she would be pissed if Z didn’t back off. I kept washing the dishes, not responding physically, attempting to change the subject. Z kept coming up behind me, putting “her” arms around me, whispering in my ear. I kept trying to move, but Z was much bigger and stronger and I didn’t want to start a physical struggle. I was trying to play calm even though I was very anxious.

At some point I left to go to the bathroom and when I came out Z cornered me further back in the apartment - in the bedroom. I was very uncomfortable, minimally responsive, and I said “no” in every way I could think of, making excuses in-between Z’s creepy advances. Even still, I didn’t want to hurt “her” feelings (cough-female socialization-cough.) Maybe I thought that somehow my identity could still be a shield.

It was all just a game to Z. “She” laughed off my protests. “She” tripped me down onto the mattress on the floor. “She” raped me.

Later, Z wrote an account of the events on “her” blog. Everything was backwards in Z’s version: I, the “man,” was the one making the advances. “She” quoted “her” words as mine. “She” presented “herself” as the passive sexual partner, and me as aggressive and dominant and pushy. Z wrote out the coercive atmosphere as erotica. Even the basic physical logistics were reversed.

The only detail that Z left out of the reversal was the part where the female in the situation fears being pregnant while waiting for her late period for a week.

This was not the only time Z hurt me. I continued to stay “friends” with “her” because I was isolated and I had a lot of needs I couldn’t meet. The mindfuck continued, because I was without language for “her” violence. “She” turned everything inside-out and defined what was real in many ways. When I initially saw Z’s account of the sexual encounter online, I just felt crazy. The violation escalated and went on for months.

For the next couple years, I struggled with this mental knot that could not be straightened out with the politically correct language or ideas. The aftermath was painful and difficult and I tried to find the words for what happened, but I had none within the trans paradigm. I was a “man” and “she” was a “woman.” I kept going around and around, but my brain was just locked in this wordless puzzle. I read online about cis men being “raped” by cis women, but that was not like what Z did to me. I wasn’t able to unravel this or tell anyone what really happened until I started moving out of the trans gender fog.

I have been afraid of saying anything even after finally understanding the reality of being raped by an MTF, because my words and my truth will inevitably be questioned. I wanted to write out part of my experience with this to add to the all-but-non-existent record of MTFs as dangerous men.

I never knew that this was a pattern with MTFs violating FTMs until I started talking to women who had left the trans community. I cannot identify out of rape. I was not a man when I was being fucked by this person using “her” dick as a weapon. I held no power. The trans ideology takes away my only way to portray this situation for what it was: another man hurting a woman. Rape is about power, and men hold power. Gender politics scramble the sexed pattern of violence.

Gender kept me from knowing what I already knew. I was more vulnerable to Z’s assault because defending myself would be twisted around as “male” privilege and transmisogyny, just like being raped was twisted around into being a typical sexually-aggressive “male.”

Gender isn’t some theoretical spectrum. When trans women talk about what it means to feel like a woman, this is what I think of: rape I am not allowed to even speak of. This is what it feels like to be a woman. Being FTM didn’t change the reality of sex-based violence for me, and the MTF who hurt me is no outlier.Heis just another rapist.

From: snowflakeespecial.tumblr.com/post/88965957647/the-gender-of-rape

A 14-year-old female who experiences dysphoria is no less vulnerable than any other female child, and deserves to be safeguarded.

RedDogsBeg · 28/07/2021 16:14

That's horrific Purgatory.

Chickenyhead · 28/07/2021 16:29

That made me cry. It's so unjust and corrupt.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/07/2021 16:35

Awful. That poor young woman.

Helleofabore · 28/07/2021 16:38

That is a very hard read Purgatory.

This is not an isolated incident, of course. There is at least one detransitioner who has reported sexual abuse from 'mentors' from LGBT groups. It fits though with the statistics for sex crimes against women though. The research and prison statistics show that transitioning in no way decreases the propensity to commit male pattern crimes to anywhere near the level of females.

It is merely that some people feel the need to obfuscate the statistics to hide this. And some people never feel the need to question why, because they don't want to be called phobic for doing so.

Chickenyhead · 28/07/2021 16:41

Well I think I am ready to accept the current definition of being phobic. Because it includes everything based on fact. The truth.

Speak the truth and you are phobic.

I don't feel very kind anymore.

I feel really angry. It's the attacks.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/07/2021 16:46

It's the callous gaslighting that there are no issues for women and girls that for me is the worst thing. And all the flying monkeys enabling it because they either aren't observant enough to see it or are more concerned with their own image/standing.

As someone who has experienced coercive control from a partner, it feels the same, and is quite upsetting to deal with sometimes.

BatmansBat · 28/07/2021 20:44

That is horrific Purgatory. What an absolutely awful experience for that poor trans man. And to have the situation reversed and put online by the trans woman must have hurt so much. I have no words.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/07/2021 21:46

Chickenyhead

Mumsnet hugs. I think it was something like this that pushed me over the edge. I suddenly realised I didn't care about being regarded as "kind" any more, because the price of these people's opinions is my own self-respect. I cannot turn a blind eye to such cruelties and live with myself. It's not kind to the victims.

Chickenyhead · 28/07/2021 21:49

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Chickenyhead

Mumsnet hugs. I think it was something like this that pushed me over the edge. I suddenly realised I didn't care about being regarded as "kind" any more, because the price of these people's opinions is my own self-respect. I cannot turn a blind eye to such cruelties and live with myself. It's not kind to the victims.

Yes, I have arrived there now, there is no going back.

I'm a bit ashamed of some of my less informed previous views.