Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

[Ziegfeld]

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

It's the other way round. It's an ideology of white, privileged middle class people

Exactly. And it's the most vulnerable, unprivileged that will suffer the most at the hands of it, like the women currently being terrorised by rapists in women's prison (but the SJW's don't seem to give a flying one about them).

Tell you what: I am white, I am middle class.

I'm a radical feminist. That means I stand with my working class sisters, my black sisters, my Asian sisters, my upper class sisters, my disabled sisters, my sisters with learning difficulties, my undereducated sisters, my abused sisters, my criminal sisters, my religious sisters, my foreign national sisters, and my gender non-conforming sisters.

All my sisters. All women, always.

A white gay friend once told me that as a Black woman I should have more empathy for TW

This is one element of TRA propaganda that really blew my mind when I heard it. Yes I am white, western and (partly) middle class but it had literally never occurred to me that feminism wouldn't include all women around the world - surely that's the entire point of it, that all women have something so important in common and share the same issues and kinds of oppression (though different in detail and degree of course) in all societies.

To be told that "white feminism" excludes black women and TW on the same basis was just so ridiculous and insulting I couldn't believe it.

Your friend is talking rubbish. I am Indian and yet to meet another Indian friend who believes TWAW.

TWAW is a privilege belief. There's a word for it but it's too late - I can't remember.

TWAW is a privilege belief. There's a word for it but it's too late - I can't remember.

Luxury belief?

Luxury belief - that's the word. Tell him from me he can ftfo with his luxury belief.

GCAcademic - cross post. That's it.

If all he can say regarding women's safety, is that is transphobic and make a ridiculous allegation that all women who are concerned about Self ID are white and working class..it is rubbish. It is always said to shut women's activist down, it has been used before..and also all women have rights, yes even white, middle class ones. I would consider my friendship with this poseur.

Asylum seeker tugs on your heartstrings but it has to mean men’s spaces are too dangerous for able bodied adult males (regardless of surgery) but absolutely fine for females who identify as men. And if we’re making spaces like loos unisex it makes no sense anyway. It’s just removing spaces from females who don’t buy in.

I am Asian and very much GC. Your friend doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

No, it isn't.

White middle class women are still women who are affected by this ideology in a way that men are not.

Also tell him to spend 5 minutes on Lipstick Alley and "educate himself" as the saying goes.

Basically what I came to say!

No I follow loads of gay men on Twitter who are GC. What an idiot this man is.

White Middle class people generally are more outspoken when they have more controversial views because they are not experiencing class or race based discrimination. So in a patriarchy white middle class women are the mouth piece for other women. Like in the suffragettes, nobody listening to the working class woman's struggle it was politicised by the middle class. That's not to say the working class woman didn't feel the same way, she just didn't have the energy left to fight that fight as well. That doesn't mean working class and BAME women don't agree, it means that many don't feel able to vocalise it is loudly. That said I wouldn't say either working class women or BAME women are unrepresentated in this anyway.

So, you'd have no trouble determining who's female and who's male with these two people, then?

www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fpin%2F434597432786364583%2F&psig=AOvVaw2QUL81xc3SnX4vmQyPA2Zy&ust=1627283165063000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAoQjRxqFwoTCLjJ77DU_fECFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

www.google.com/search?q=buck+angel&newwindow=1&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk02D7Suq6uhcMWg1nDuICGs5k73ggw:1627196867954&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=tWAYDCfx4MFrXM%252CYwSRdeMA_i7uXM%252C%252Fm%252F0bc856&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kToV3XPWlFLFicva4L_KejOPUblCA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-1Kza1P3xAhV3ZxUIHcuXDjkQ_B16BAgiEAE#imgrc=tWAYDCfx4MFrXM

I’m not sure why the fact that I might sometimes be unsure what sex a person means sex-based rights should be removed.

Sometimes GC people say they can always tell, but I don’t agree as I’ve been mis-sexed myself especially when younger. It can be hard to tell, though it very, very often isn’t.

Why does this mean someone who is clearly male be allowed to enter women’s spaces and intimidate women, make them uncomfortable, flash at them etc?

Yes such a system/law can be abused or got past, like pretty much all laws. We don’t have a law that you’re allowed to enter random people’s homes and take their stuff, just because it sometimes happens.

[quote Yesindeedydoodey]So, you'd have no trouble determining who's female and who's male with these two people, then?

www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fpin%2F434597432786364583%2F&psig=AOvVaw2QUL81xc3SnX4vmQyPA2Zy&ust=1627283165063000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAoQjRxqFwoTCLjJ77DU_fECFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

www.google.com/search?q=buck+angel&newwindow=1&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk02D7Suq6uhcMWg1nDuICGs5k73ggw:1627196867954&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=tWAYDCfx4MFrXM%252CYwSRdeMA_i7uXM%252C%252Fm%252F0bc856&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kToV3XPWlFLFicva4L_KejOPUblCA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-1Kza1P3xAhV3ZxUIHcuXDjkQ_B16BAgiEAE#imgrc=tWAYDCfx4MFrXM[/quote]
The first link doesn't work for me and the second one is of Buck Angel, one of the most well-known transmen who and fears about the TRA movement.

A man impersontating a woman or a woman impersonating a man, may or may not pass successfully. It doesn't negate the reality of their biology.

Rachel Dolezal impersonated as a black American woman and passed very successfully. Just because she managed to pass doesn't mean she actually is black and society has subsequently not accepted her right to self-identify with a different race. What is the difference in these scenarios?

Same here, first link doesn’t work, in the other I immediately recognised buck angel who we all know is a transman thanks to having a high profile and GC campaigning. Buck’s voice doesn’t sound male, though I might see a male initially if I didn’t already know.

Asian woman here I believe transwomen are transwomen women are women.

It’s just gaslighting “wrong side of history, you should be ashamed of yourself, you are probably a bit racist too” bullshit.

Obviously no-one cares about transmen, wonder why ……… 🤔

@Yesindeedydoodey

If they were striding around a communal changing room with their cock out, or standing at a public lavatory with the door open, I think I would be able to tell quite easily.

If they were standing in a bus queue or buying a loaf of bread, I would not care.

What is the point you wanted to make with your question?

There are lots of women of colour who are also GC.

The incident at Wi Spa in Los Angeles for example. A black American woman raised concerns and filmed her complaints and concerns with the Spa employees about a man being in the women’s locker room and she was shouted down as transphobic and of course trans women (white middle class, wealthier white men) attacked her, accused her of making it up. Media outlets (biased ones) accused her of making it up. She gave a news conference about it. So imagine a black American woman being told by trans women (white men in dresses) that they are more oppressed than her. Of course black women know this is nonsense and nothing but gaslighting, but no matter what colour a woman is, she is going to be shouted over by the Tra.

It’s not only white middle class women..it’s a lot of women who are too afraid to speak up. And when they do they are told they are lying. I think many women of colour know that this is an uphill battle. None of us.. white, black are being heard when it comes
To the Tra movement. But I know many women of colour who are also GC.

I’d say quite the opposite!

I'm always unsure what point people are trying to make with regards photos of people who have gone to great lengths to present as the opposite sex. Would the same people suggest that access to nightclubs, purchase of alcohol etc should be granted to fifteen year olds who have gone to great lengths to appear over twenty one? The extension of such an argument would be that we dispense with age-based restrictions/protections altogether.
Similarly if a twenty two year old looks convincingly in a photograph to be fifteen is the argument that he should be given access to 12-16 year old youth groups etc?