Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

[Ziegfeld]

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

@BloomingTrees

Wasn't that a criticism of the suffragettes, yet they managed to get all women the vote.

The majority of women of colour at the time had to wait another ten years to get the vote.

The first link is of Jaye Davidson in The Crying Game.

UK timeline

1918
The Representation of the People Act is passed on 6 February giving women the vote provided they are aged over 30 and either they, or their husband, meet a property qualification

1918
The Parliament (Qualification of Women) Act is passed on 21 November allowing women to stand for Parliament

1918
Women vote in a general election for the first time on 14 December with 8.5 million women eligible

1928
The Equal Franchise Act is passed giving women equal voting rights with men. All women aged over 21 can now vote in elections. Fifteen million women are eligible

Man: "how can i discredit women views? I know by saying women aren't inclusive enough so I can prove that my manly views are the right ones and are inclusive despite my privilege as a man which shall automatically become invisible if i raise concerns about the privilege of women"

But they wouldn't be striding around changing room with their cock out, nor using a women's toilet in an unusual way. The point is that you would have no idea of the genitalia they have from their appearance. It's a nonsense.

The majority of women of colour at the time had to wait another ten years to get the vote.

Do you mean in the UK? Are you referring to the wording of the Representation of the People 1918 or 1928 Acts? As I recall, neither of the acts were based on a racial divide, unlike Australia or the United States. The acts applied to all women and wasn't only for the enfranchisment of white women.

@Yesindeedydoodey

The first link is of Jaye Davidson in The Crying Game.

Yesindeedy What's the point you trying to make? There are many examples in film, literature and theatre of a plot device whereby a character presents as the opposite sex and is revealed at the end. Shakespeare was fond of it (though at the time all female parts were played by male actors).

Sorry, cross-post with R0wantrees.

@Yesindeedydoodey

But they wouldn't be striding around changing room with their cock out, nor using a women's toilet in an unusual way. The point is that you would have no idea of the genitalia they have from their appearance. It's a nonsense.

The suggestion that women and girls might be observed undressing/sleeping by men in single sex spaces without their knowledge or consent is not the 'gotcha' that you seem to believe it to be.

@Yesindeedydoodey

But they wouldn't be striding around changing room with their cock out, nor using a women's toilet in an unusual way. The point is that you would have no idea of the genitalia they have from their appearance. It's a nonsense.

Are you trying to use the "It never happens" excuse?

I think the point is that it's useless to talk about what we should and shouldn't do, legally, with regard to people's use of toilets and changing rooms. You can get people to carry identity cards, but those can be fixed. I'd think that people who'd gone to all the trouble of changing their appearance would be able to sort out the 'appropriate identity', too.

These arguments about toilets and transpeople kicked off in a big way in the USA some years ago, under the supremely malignant leadership of Trump. The arguments that I saw on various US forums always fizzled out (and, actually, frequently became farcical) when it came to the matter of how to police whatever laws were hypothesised to be introduced on the issue.

**But they wouldn't be striding around changing room with their cock out, nor using a women's toilet in an unusual way. The point is that you would have no idea of the genitalia they have from their appearance. It's a nonsense.^^

Obviously you are a stranger to Social Media where you will find countless images of people doing just that.

That's a continuation of your straw man line, really, isn't it?

Funny in this country it was pretty easy to stop men accessing female spaces.
" Oi mate that's the ladies' usually worked

I suspect he really thinks the working class and ethnic minority ppl are too thick to understand or care about these matters. Patronising git.

[quote Yesindeedydoodey]So, you'd have no trouble determining who's female and who's male with these two people, then?

www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fpin%2F434597432786364583%2F&psig=AOvVaw2QUL81xc3SnX4vmQyPA2Zy&ust=1627283165063000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAoQjRxqFwoTCLjJ77DU_fECFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

www.google.com/search?q=buck+angel&newwindow=1&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk02D7Suq6uhcMWg1nDuICGs5k73ggw:1627196867954&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=tWAYDCfx4MFrXM%252CYwSRdeMA_i7uXM%252C%252Fm%252F0bc856&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kToV3XPWlFLFicva4L_KejOPUblCA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-1Kza1P3xAhV3ZxUIHcuXDjkQ_B16BAgiEAE#imgrc=tWAYDCfx4MFrXM[/quote]
Despite the make-up & hair I see masculine facial features in the first picture and the second is Buck Angel, although I personally find pictures of many transmen of that age look similar to me. In real life I’ve seen many transwomen, their size, gait, features, voice, attitude to women and numerous other incongruencies have always given them away. I’ve not knowingly met any transmen. It is easier to tell in real life as pictures don't always indicate scale

Oh no, guv’nor, salt of the erf we is. Welcome to all, more the meeriah. We don’t ‘ave much, but we ‘ave we share, don’t we? Come on da’hlin, let’s budge up for a kindred spirit eh?

Are right...

@Yesindeedydoodey

But they wouldn't be striding around changing room with their cock out, nor using a women's toilet in an unusual way. The point is that you would have no idea of the genitalia they have from their appearance. It's a nonsense.

And yet the personal experience of women such as myself who have experience of transwomen using women’s toilets and can and do say from personal experience transwomen do not act like women in toilets and are sometimes very scary in their behaviour are disregarded

Oh and the photos.

Yes I would think #1 was male, and I know Buck (not personally - definitely not professionally) and have seen the photos of when they were a female fashion model. Also Scott Newgent - I would clock Scott as female (something about the eyes), also was a very beautiful woman.

Sex is a funny old thing isn’t it...

And yet the personal experience of women such as myself who have experience of transwomen using women’s toilets and can and do say from personal experience transwomen do not act like women in toilets and are sometimes very scary in their behaviour are disregarded

Of course they are . Vulva owners don't count.

@Yesindeedydoodey

What is the point you wanted to make with your question?

Was it "It is sometimes possible for a man to disguise himself as a woman?"

Or did you mean to convey something else?

I don’t want men in all female spaces irrespective of whether they have their cocks out.

@JackGrealishsShorts

Your friend is wrong and a total arse.

You called the OPs friend a total arse. Bit strong innit? In life people will have different opinions. As long as they are not inciting hatred.

(PigletJohn the DIYguy?) haven’t seen you for a while.

... To add: to take people opposed to transwomen using women's toilets/changing rooms at their word: the real fear is of predatory men, not of transwomen, per se. (Obviously - to say otherwise would open them up to the charge of being transphobic). Going into the wrong toilet/changing room is never going to be considered a major crime by most people. If a man wants to be predatory, he'll do it, I'd suspect, without worrying greatly (or even at all) about the minor crime of using the wrong toilet in order to commit the major crime of being preying on a woman.

And ... secondly ... a transwoman will prioritise her physical safety over getting caught committing the minor crime of going into the wrong toilet or using women's changing room. Who wouldn't?

So that's what she'd do ... unless she were to make the wrong assumption of which toilet she'd be safest to use - and were to go into a women's toilet/changing room, and got beaten up there - by a woman/women. (Yes, of course there have been cases of that.)