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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

643 replies

Ziegfeld · 24/07/2021 19:27

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

OP posts:
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Helleofabore · 28/12/2021 12:47

Damn

MN is glitchy on my phone.

That should be

Pointing out the connection of posting images of yourself in BDSM gear declaring yourself a mistress, posting pics of your cleavage and asking posters if they want to see more, posting a profile image of you in a bath that is then superimposed over a line up with small girls with their faces shown and then seeing the name referring to teabags and is which then refers to the sexual act is not lying barley. And there is actually no evidence to the contrary that you can provide. Just a claim that it isn’t so.

MN site is not letting me scroll and select words or sentences properly this week.

Helleofabore · 28/12/2021 12:57

But just for reference:

I don't believe you saw the original and it was different. All of the pics from her social media have been widely published by gender critical activists and are all over the internet. It's clearly a facebook profile pic, it is in no way explicit and it's impossible to tell whether she's in a bath.

barleybadminton · 28/12/2021 13:04

@Helleofabore

No. I did not lie.

Posting images of yourself in BDSM gear declaring yourself a mistress, posting pics of your cleavage and asking posters if they want to see more, posting a profile image of you in a bath that is then superimposed over a line up with small girls with their faces shown and then seeing the name referring to teabags and is which then refers to the sexual act is not lying barley. And there is actually no evidence to the contrary that you can provide to the contrary. Just a claim that it isn’t so.

And you accused me of lying about the my claim of seeing the full profile shot. Which was then posted by another poster and was as I described. So, don’t try to twist it. You were absolutely wrong and you know it.

The name was Tetley, it's a very common name in the north, heaven' knows what kind of lurid mind you must have to assume it must be a sexual reference. It certainly impacts on your credibility as far as I'm concerned.
VestofAbsurdity · 28/12/2021 13:20

At least Hellofabore has credibility to be impacted on, unlike you barleybadminton, however, her credibility has not been impacted in the slightest, everything she says is true, I saw exactly what she described, including the reference to the teabag sexual act.

I doubt Hellofabore cares what someone so blase about child safeguarding as you are thinks about her, and quite frankly neither do I.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/12/2021 13:24

Barley, would I be right in thinking that you are not a gamer?

I'm sorry to disabuse you of your quaint notions, but these references are easily recognisable to those of us who grew up during the digital age or those of the generation above who pay attention to what their current teens do online.

Beyond the implications meant when teabags were referenced, I myself became acquainted with a range of homophobic expressions in German from playing multiplayer FPS games on German servers, that certainly weren't covered in the A-level German I was taking at the time.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/12/2021 13:27

By your logic, understanding such insults made me a homophobic German teenager.

Helleofabore · 28/12/2021 13:54

The person’s surname is Sully. What would be the reason to choose the name Tetley?

And nice attempt at deflection.

The point you tried to call me out on was completely disproved.

Tell us barley. Why so keen to dismiss the photo of very young girls on the very top of a profile so it cannot be missed with not only a picture of the person in the bath, but with numerous posts of a sexualised nature and featuring weapons of an uncontrolled nature.

Why on earth would you be trying to distract people from that?

I don’t feel my credibility is at stake here barley. At all.

And which is it…. Are we prudes and pearl clutchers for pointing out the issues of the images or do we have ‘lurid’ minds? You really cannot have it both ways when it comes to safeguarding women and children.

Helleofabore · 28/12/2021 13:57

@VestofAbsurdity

At least Hellofabore has credibility to be impacted on, unlike you barleybadminton, however, her credibility has not been impacted in the slightest, everything she says is true, I saw exactly what she described, including the reference to the teabag sexual act.

I doubt Hellofabore cares what someone so blase about child safeguarding as you are thinks about her, and quite frankly neither do I.

Thank you. It is not often I am early enough to see social media accounts before they are locked down. But I know many of us did before it even was posted about on MN.
barleybadminton · 28/12/2021 14:04

The person’s surname is Sully. What would be the reason to choose the name Tetley?

There are all kinds of reasons a person might use a different name online. Or it could be her maiden name, she's married. She also has a large number of grandchildren and it is quite possibly them in her facebook header. It is not clear from her facebook profile pic she is in a bath. And even if other images are online which show her in a bath they are non explicit, a picture of someone's shoulders is hardly a safeguarding risk.

Anyway we've discussed this, perhaps it would be more fruitful to continue the discussion about why the gender critical movement is perceived by so many as white and middle class.

FrancescaContini · 28/12/2021 14:07

@everythingcrossed

Dismissing an issue as "white and middle class " is a very overrated way of closing an argument down.
Yes, I agree.
WeeBisom · 28/12/2021 14:09

The idea that being gender critical is middle class is really strange to me. My working class family (including myself) are gender critical in that we don’t believe men can change sex into women. On the other hand every single person I know who is a trans rights activist or who has a trans identity is middle class.

Helleofabore · 28/12/2021 14:13

Sure barley. More deflection.

You tried to call me out as a liar and it backfired. I am merely pointing out a history of bizzarre takes. The one you made on this thread was just another one.

VestofAbsurdity · 28/12/2021 14:16

@barleybadminton

The person’s surname is Sully. What would be the reason to choose the name Tetley?

There are all kinds of reasons a person might use a different name online. Or it could be her maiden name, she's married. She also has a large number of grandchildren and it is quite possibly them in her facebook header. It is not clear from her facebook profile pic she is in a bath. And even if other images are online which show her in a bath they are non explicit, a picture of someone's shoulders is hardly a safeguarding risk.

Anyway we've discussed this, perhaps it would be more fruitful to continue the discussion about why the gender critical movement is perceived by so many as white and middle class.

Yes we have discussed this and despite all the evidence you still won't admit that you are wrong, you are determined to excuse absolutely everything on the basis the person in question is trans, you are accusing people of lying when they aren't.

It is also a lie that the gender critical movement is white and middle class, but you will never accept that irrespective of what evidence is provided to you.

Ceramide · 28/12/2021 14:27

Has your friend considered that black women and working class women can find it harder to be heard in this world?

barleybadminton · 28/12/2021 14:36

@WeeBisom

The idea that being gender critical is middle class is really strange to me. My working class family (including myself) are gender critical in that we don’t believe men can change sex into women. On the other hand every single person I know who is a trans rights activist or who has a trans identity is middle class.
I know four trans women, one works in Tesco, another in a bus garage, one is a sex worker and one is on disability benefits.

But who we know is not really that relevent because it's so subjective. There is ample evidence which shows trans people face discrimination in employment, are more likely to face homelessness and are economically marginalised. The existence of a few middle class trans people doesn't negate that.

But I think what this thread really highlights is that regardless of their views on trans women this is not really a matter of huge concern to the working class. To that extent it is a somewhat privileged position to make this issue your political focus rather than something like universal credit, or the housing crisis or decimation of public services which is blighting so many working class lives. This isn't something that particularly affects the lives of working class women, who often have far more immediate and pressing concerns to worry about, so it is unsuprising that the gender critical movement's most ardent activists all apear to be somewhat economically privileged.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/12/2021 14:40

As I have commented on other threads, I once had the choice choosing a mixed sex long-term homelessness hostel or a single-sex women's only host. I chose the single-sex one, and I want that choice to be available to young women today who are in the position I was once in.

Your move, buster.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/12/2021 14:41

*Women's only hostEL

Sorry, other people speaking over me and telling me what working-class women should be interested in makes me forget to proofread.

barleybadminton · 28/12/2021 14:46

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

As I have commented on other threads, I once had the choice choosing a mixed sex long-term homelessness hostel or a single-sex women's only host. I chose the single-sex one, and I want that choice to be available to young women today who are in the position I was once in.

Your move, buster.

I've also been in that position, and I want those choices available too. I'm not sure how it's really relevent to the matter at hand though.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/12/2021 14:47

Oh, I think you understand the relevance very well.

Alsoden · 28/12/2021 14:48

No

barleybadminton · 28/12/2021 14:49

Although I would rather we had a functioning social housing system which meant people didn't have to make such choices.

VestofAbsurdity · 28/12/2021 14:53

But I think what this thread really highlights is that regardless of their views on trans women this is not really a matter of huge concern to the working class.

You know nothing of the concerns of the working class as this take from you so amply demonstrates. The working class do not want their daughters sharing toilets and changing rooms at school with boys who declare themselves girls. This is also the case with immigrant and religious communities some who are already at the very edges of society.

It absolutely does affect their lives and the decimation of services they may have to access being single sex is of paramount importance to them.

The majority of women in prison are from lower socio-economic backgrounds, many of them are victims of horrendous abuse and they do not want to share their cells, showers or open spaces with rapists and paedophiles who identify as women, they do not want to be used as validation tools for said rapists and paedophiles womanly feelings.

Look at the supporters of gender ideology they are most definitely not marginalised or working class, invariably they are white and extremely privileged, more often that not male and often not trans, they will never have to face what women on the very margins of society face so they don't give a stuff as to how this ideology impacts on those women, as long as them and theirs are okay and they can wave their ally colours and abuse anyone who speaks out against the ideology from the comfort and safety of their ivory tower they are as happy as pigs in shit.

TheWeeDonkey · 28/12/2021 15:04

I really don't understand this notion the people who know the difference between male and female and all that entails are somehow out of touch with reality and not worthy of consideration.

Do you really think that working class or people who are not white cannot see the implications of Self ID?

Or are you going to switch to a different argument now?

barleybadminton · 28/12/2021 15:04

The majority of women in prison are from lower socio-economic backgrounds, many of them are victims of horrendous abuse and they do not want to share their cells, showers or open spaces with rapists and paedophiles who identify as women, they do not want to be used as validation tools for said rapists and paedophiles womanly feelings.

Firstly they will not be required to share cells with trans women. But I think this probably highlights the differing interests. Most women in prison would rather not be there, and would rather have not had the lives that led them there. It is those primarily economic matters which tend to be the main focus.. They may not like trans women in the women's system, or they may well not care, but I'm willing to bet if you actually asked women in prison what could be done to improve their lives then getting rid of the trans women would be pretty low down the list compared to better food, more recreation and education, shorter and more home-based sentences etc.

It is this prioritising of this issue over and above everything else which appears to negate the realities of working class lives and political objectives. If you're worried about being evicted, or your kids are hungry then which toilet trans women use is unlikely to be a political priority and I'm sure most in that position would love to see the same energy that's poured into the gender critical movement be directed towards the things that are actually blighting working class women's lives on a daily basis.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/12/2021 15:18

Post 1: It is this prioritising of this issue over and above everything else which appears to negate the realities of working class lives and political objectives.

Excuse me. I may be about to die of irony poisoning.

The group A Woman's Place had a meeting about welfare for women in prison which discussed multiple issues.

A group of trans demands protestors gathered outside to hurl misogynistic and racist abuse and participants, and attendees. Those participants included women who had formerly been imprisoned. So why is the inclusion of some males in women's prisons of such high priority that it's makes it okay to shout abuse at women who happen to also campaign for single-sex spaces too?

Content Warning: direct quotes from the activists' misogynistic and racist attacks.

After attendees, staff and volunteers were subject to an abusive protest at our recent meeting, A Woman’s Place is NOT in prison, we have written the following letter to the Socialist Workers Party (SWP) calling on them to repudiate racism, misogyny and other abuse at any protests they are associated with.

As this is a matter of great importance for feminists, socialists, people of colour and trade unionists we feel it is essential that any exchange of views is in the public domain.

This blog contains details of misogynistic, racist and other abuse.

Dear SWP,

Your paper’s coverage of the protests against Professor Kathleen Stock at the University of Sussex made it clear that the SWP believes it is legitimate for women who recognise that sex is a material reality to be harassed and intimidated at their workplace. The protests have now resulted in Professor Stock being obliged to leavethe university. While the piece does say that women like us should not be driven out of our jobs, it gave a signal to your members that they have your organisation’s support if they take part in such protests, whatever the professional or personal impact on the targeted woman.

D, who identifies as an SWP member on Twitter, organised just such a protest at our public meeting AWoman’s Place Is (Not) In Prison on Wednesday October 27th at the QE2 Centre in London.

D’s public Twitter feed encourages people to join the SWP. D has retweeted statements suggesting that protesting at events like ours is a form of “anti-fascist solidarity”. The same individual also tweeted the time and location of our meeting encouraging people to protest at it and described Joanna Cherry MP and women who share her opinions as “absolute Nazis”.

Almost 600 women had bought tickets to hear an all-woman panel discuss how prison punishes women for being poor, violently abused and vulnerable. It was a meeting which would have been of interest to any socialist or feminist as it was discussing the cruelties of the prison system and alternatives to it for vulnerable working-class women. [bold mine]

There were only about six protestors and videos of them arecirculating widelyonline.

Our event coincided with a conference for Black people in business as part of Black History Month.

People attending our event and the Black business meeting, venue staff and our stewards were subjected to the most extreme outpouring of racist and misogynistic abuse. The apparent organiser and leader of the protest, D, and the SWP by association, bear responsibility for the protestors’ language and behaviour.

These include comments such as:

“Shut the fck up, you cnt”shouted into the face of our chief steward.

“Call Weightwatchers, your body’s not doing it.”

“Your hair is minging, buy a weave.”

“Your breath smells like you’ve been eating are, have you been eating her ase?”

“Are you a lesbian? No man would want that.”

“Your breasts are on the floor, buy a bra and some hair dye too.”

“You fucking bald b*tch.”

“You’re a stuck-up b*tch.”

“I have a better body than you. Like, you have no bum. How do you sit down? What kind of man would want you? A blind man?”

“We don’t want pensioners. We don’t want dinosaurs like all you lot. You are not going to be around in 40 years. Well, 40’s a push.”

“You call yourself a woman? DIE! DIE! DIE!”

To people arriving for the Black Business event (who did not interact with the protestors):

“You went through slavery, you went through discrimination, rape, sexual harassment, the slave masters raped and sexually abused you and now you are abusing me, as a trans woman?”

“You were persecuted. You were nothing under slavery.”

“You look me in the eye. Your ancestors went through slavery and you are here. Hang your head in shame. Slave Master! Yes! Slave Master!”

“You call yourself Black people?”

“Why are you here? Are you supporting these Nazis? Are you supporting neo-Nazis?”

We are asking that the SWP openly stands up to racism and misogyny organised and facilitated by one of its members. As a self-described socialist taking part in the protest and someone who has spoken on behalf of Stand Up To Racism, D had a duty either to tell his collaborators to stop the racism, misogyny and offensive behaviour against women at the venue or to walk away from it. D did neither but instead contributed to it.

It will be apparent to you from watching the videos that our activists refused to engage with the abuse. We are committed to respectful debate on questions of sex and gender with people who disagree with us.

The intimidation to which we were subjected by people who are practising what you preach will not prevent us from organising other major events in the coming months.

We are part of a resurgent women’s liberation movementto which your group is hostile. We accept that, but we would like an assurance that if your members take your paper’s advice and protest against us that they will not permit abusive, racist, misogynistic behaviour at mobilisations for which you are politically responsible.

Some of our activists work alongside SWP members in unions and campaigns. This is an impossible relationship to maintain if people in the SWP are saying in public that we are equivalent to fascists. If this is now the approved position of the SWP it needs to be stated explicitly. If it is not, that also needs to be stated explicitly, if only for the benefit of your members who seem unclear on the question.

The best way for your organisation to do that is to publish a public statement unequivocally repudiating racism, ageism and misogyny which will remind your supporters that they are unacceptable in every circumstance.

WPUK

womansplaceuk.org/2021/10/30/open-letter-swp-abusive-protest/