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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

643 replies

Ziegfeld · 24/07/2021 19:27

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

OP posts:
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barleybadminton · 28/12/2021 17:02

No doubt you will hand wave that away as you do with everything else.

No I'd be very interested to see evidence of this, beyond a few anonymous anecdotes collated by gender critical groups ideally.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/12/2021 17:04

Word salad, Barley, garnished with a rotten tomato and some slowly decomposing lettuce.

To quote the government, according to the 2011 Census, the total population of England and Wales was 56.1 million, and 86.0% of the population was White. Scotland is approximately 98% white, IIRC.

Please explain how it benefits UK women of other ethnicities if a subset of males are placed on women's hospital wards. How does it benefit the approx 15% of women here who aren't white if women's-only swimming sessions aren't single-sex? What about this serves their needs?

How does it benefit them if they cannot access single-sex rape counselling? How does it benefit them if transwomen are housed in women's prisons?

allmywhat · 28/12/2021 17:09

One of the posters here can’t help betraying their a total inability to empathise with women.

You can have a lot of valid and important concerns about your future, your education, your health and your living situation but if you’re suddenly faced with the prospect of being literally locked up with a rapist of course that’s going to be a priority. For anyone who needs to hear it; working class women and even prisoners have feelings and fears and dignity too; they aren’t less scared of male predators than other women.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/12/2021 17:09

This is part of a speech by Onjali Rauf, who is a novelist and tireless campaigner for refugees.

extract

As a woman who isn’t white and better yet, wears a scarf on her head, believe you me, I know what it feels like to be constantly ‘othered’.

Even in spaces where I hoped I might not be.

And after nigh on three decades of trying to fit in, to be accepted as the feminist I am, to find spaces where I can just be me without having to battle another label, or another patronising stereotype, or a racist bias that has nothing to do with me, I find it shocking that now, even the space to call myself what I am – a woman, who needs the companionship, help, support, and sisterhood of other women, is also being chipped away at.

The very words ‘girl’ and ‘woman’ – the very basic but undeniable facts of my existence, my genetic make-up, my body’s functions and needs, my capacities, my limits, my possible life experiences, and the shared experiences that come with being a girl and woman first and everything else next, now seem to be sounds of disdain and disrepute.

And along with the gradual but very deliberate marking down, drowning out and silencing of those two words, are all the imperfect, too-small, too-cramped, too-labelled spaces and safety measures women have fought so hard for.

(Continues)

And to be frank, for a chubby Asian girl facing sexism and racism on all fronts already, I cannot imagine what this added layer of not-fitting-in would have done to my already young and vulnerable mind.

I was lucky enough to have parents who let me be just me – a girl who happened to want to be an astronaut, a ninja turtle and a reporter, and who didn’t like dresses or salwar kameez’s, right until she hit 21, and promptly became addicted to ball dresses.

(Continues)

As a woman of faith – whose God, may I please remind everyone, IS genderless, I have zero problems with anyone who is anything ‘other’ than me.

If you’re a man who wants to step out of the socially constructed He-Man box that is ‘man’ to make a home in the socially constructed box of ‘woman’, then go for it.

But please, please, please, don’t do so to invade a space that women are still fighting so hard for.

Create your own space – a third space – a fifth space – a seventh space – one which caters to your own unique experiences and needs too – because you will have plenty of both that we as women won’t understand or share in too.

Or better yet, take space from the men – they have lots!

And please don’t pretend that my own experiences of transforming from girl to woman – and all the millions of tiny hurts and pains and prejudices and pushbacks all women have suffered as a result of being a girl, then woman, can be shared by you either.

Whether it’s toilets or changing rooms, specialist services or a refuge, school toilets or prison cells or hospital wards, it’s vital women’s uniqueness, lives and wants be as respected as you want your uniqueness, lives and wants to be respected.

As someone working with women fleeing domestic violence and war, human trafficking rings, childhood sexual abuse and a million and one other experiences of male-inflicted violence in between, our under-funded, drastically reducing, single-sex spaces are literally our last vestiges of safety.

For women who have been punched, beaten, raped, and broken at every possible level you can conceive, to be forced to accept former men as part of their healing process, will, to put it bluntly, lead to further trauma, or worse still, a distrust and turning away from the very services they believed might help them.

And I have to ask our policy makers, our parliament, and organisations like Stonewall and basically any human being with a shred of humanity:really?

Do these women’s needs and the needs of the young boys and girls they bring with them, really matter so little to you?

Aren’t they just as important as those wanting to be granted access to our worlds? And not only access – but special rules and allowances too?

As I look around in today’s world, I see more and more bewildered women and girls feeling confused, alienated and afraid.

Women like myself and my Sikh or Hindu or Jewish friends who need single-space places to safely unveil, wash up and reconfigure ourselves; or women who are breastfeeding and lactating and needing a space to let it all hang out; or women going through the menopause or chemotherapy who need safe spaces to just be looked after, or young girls on their first ever periods or sprouting breasts who need space for support and reassurance.

Or every woman ever, who needs a safe space like this to come and meet and talk about our fears and battles, and hopefully create better policies and movements for our future women.

Even the smallest annihilation of the basic right to be a woman in the presence of other women can have dire impacts on our health and state of mind.

A case in point: three weeks ago, I took a dear friend to lunch.

All was going well, we were having a beautiful time, and halfway through the meal, she left to go to the restaurant bathroom.

The woman that came back, was not the same one who left the luncheon table: for instead of the carefree, happy being I knew, came back a pale, quiet and slightly shaken version.

It transpired the restaurant had a gender ‘neutral’ bathroom, and as she had made her way down, a very innocent man had walked out of the toilets, banging into her.

Nothing of any significance to anyone watching – not until I tell you that this friend of two decades, had been raped in her university dorm room at the age of twenty, and feared all contact with men – no matter how nice, kind, friendly, non-threatening or ‘effeminate’ they might seem.

Continues

womansplaceuk.org/2019/10/01/the-sheer-audacity-of-our-existence/

VestofAbsurdity · 28/12/2021 17:15

@barleybadminton

No doubt you will hand wave that away as you do with everything else.

No I'd be very interested to see evidence of this, beyond a few anonymous anecdotes collated by gender critical groups ideally.

Of course you'd put that caveat in there, funnily enough Gender Critical groups are the only ones doing the asking, and they have to ensure anonymity and confidentiality because of the repercussions those responding are likely to face if they speak openly. Are you accusing those who collected and collated this information of lying? That's your go to whenever something doesn't suit your narrative, isn't it? A High Court Judge openly stated in Court that the current system used by the MoJ is unsafe for women prisoners, do you believe him?

The only ones who care enough about the safety, dignity and privacy of women and girls and ask the questions are Gender Critical Groups. People like you and your allies never bothered to ask women whether or not they want to share their spaces with males and when women say "No, we don't like or want this" you just heap abuse on their heads.

The right of a women to say "No" and to refuse consent to this is an anathema to you and your ilk.

TheWeeDonkey · 28/12/2021 17:16

While I agree that women's lives wouldn't be compromised by preserving same sex services and spaces, most women are more concerned about how their lives would be affected if those same sec services and spaces are removed?

I live in a largely wc area with many different large ethnic groups. I'm a member of my local council run gym, we have mixed sex and single sex swim and gym sessions. The atmosphere is completely different and a lot more women (not just from certain ethnic groups) attend the women only sessions. I wonder why that is?

My feminism centres women and girls. I don't see any shame in that, when males are included they become the central focus and that does nothing to benefit women and girls.

Helleofabore · 28/12/2021 17:16

And yet, the women in my family barley are working class and ARE concerned.

Concerned because they have teenaged girls affected by gender ideology. Concerned because some of them work with children in safeguarding. Concerned because they themselves have been in prison. I could go on. Do they discuss it on-line no fucking way? Do they join in the campaigns, no. As you say they have other priorities.

However it is false to say that these women do not have concerns based on a premise that just because they don’t discuss it, they aren’t as concerned as anyone who is discussing it online and participating in campaigns.

It is also becoming more apparent just how little women feel they can talk about it with even their friends. You only have to look at the Yougov survey released last week.

Why do you think your friends would discuss it with you or even be honest with you about it barley? The attitude you show in your posts would be a clear indication that you cannot respect others opinions on this topic. Do you believe that the women in your life are going to be upfront about it?

You can keep spouting this crap barley. You are not convincing anyone at all.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/12/2021 17:24

@allmywhat

One of the posters here can’t help betraying their a total inability to empathise with women.

You can have a lot of valid and important concerns about your future, your education, your health and your living situation but if you’re suddenly faced with the prospect of being literally locked up with a rapist of course that’s going to be a priority. For anyone who needs to hear it; working class women and even prisoners have feelings and fears and dignity too; they aren’t less scared of male predators than other women.

It's like Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

If you don't have physical safety from violence, that takes higher priority than education. Whether you're a child in an abusive home or an incarcerated woman.

On this note, I don't actually see why substandard educational and recreational provision in prisons is a justification for mixed-sex prisons, anyway. It's like discovering that I have tomato sauce on my favourite top and deciding I might as well use it to clean the inside of the oven.

barleybadminton · 28/12/2021 17:28

Of course you'd put that caveat in there, funnily enough Gender Critical groups are the only ones doing the asking, and they have to ensure anonymity and confidentiality because of the repercussions those responding are likely to face if they speak openly. Are you accusing those who collected and collated this information of lying?

I've no idea who collated this information or even what the information is so I don't really have an opinion unless you show it to me.

barleybadminton · 28/12/2021 17:30

If you don't have physical safety from violence, that takes higher priority than education. Whether you're a child in an abusive home or an incarcerated woman.

You think women's prisons were safe until they started admitting trans women? Just another example of how out of touch the gender critical movement is with the reality working class women are facing on the ground.

allmywhat · 28/12/2021 17:41

Some men think working-class women and girls are [insert woman-hating slur] and don’t need to be protected from sexual violence. Like the attitude that men in authority had/have toward grooming gang victims.

It is almost viscerally repulsive to witness.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/12/2021 17:41

@barleybadminton

If you don't have physical safety from violence, that takes higher priority than education. Whether you're a child in an abusive home or an incarcerated woman.

You think women's prisons were safe until they started admitting trans women? Just another example of how out of touch the gender critical movement is with the reality working class women are facing on the ground.

Yawn. You're now reduced to putting words in my mouth.

Would you like to try addressing what I actually said? I happen to have loved ones - male and female - who have served prison sentences, so I am under no delusions.

VestofAbsurdity · 28/12/2021 17:43

@barleybadminton

Of course you'd put that caveat in there, funnily enough Gender Critical groups are the only ones doing the asking, and they have to ensure anonymity and confidentiality because of the repercussions those responding are likely to face if they speak openly. Are you accusing those who collected and collated this information of lying?

I've no idea who collated this information or even what the information is so I don't really have an opinion unless you show it to me.

Hilarious, really hilarious.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/12/2021 17:44

While you're at it, please explain why your attitude to violence in prison is "no point minimising it, so we might as well add some male rapists to the women's estate".

barleybadminton · 28/12/2021 17:47

Would you like to try addressing what I actually said? I happen to have loved ones - male and female - who have served prison sentences, so I am under no delusions.

Yes, women's prisons are not safe, so the priority should surely be to make them safe and prevent as many women going to prison as currently do rather than obsessing over trans people. The truth is the vast amount of women prisoners will probably never even come across a trans women, and if they do it's likely to be someone fiully transitioned and serving time for a non violent offence. There are very strict vetting rules, which have rightfully been strengthened after procedues were not followed in the Karen White case. There have been no reported incidents since then. And yet women in prison are still being assaulted and abused not just by other prisoners but also prison guards. To imply women's prisons were safe spaces, or could be safe spaces were trans women excluded, ignores every single woman who was a victim of violence in prison that had nothing to do with trans people - which is likely 99.9% of them.

Helleofabore · 28/12/2021 17:53

likely to be fully transitioned

Really? When around 95% keep their penises?

What do you call fully transitioned?

OldCrone · 28/12/2021 17:58

Yes, women's prisons are not safe, so the priority should surely be to make them safe and prevent as many women going to prison as currently do rather than obsessing over trans people.

How does putting men in women's prisons make the female prisoners safer?

The truth is the vast amount of women prisoners will probably never even come across a trans women, and if they do it's likely to be someone fiully transitioned and serving time for a non violent offence.

Aren't about half of the male prisoners who identify as trans in prison for sexual offences?

Or are these 'not real transwomen'?

Helleofabore · 28/12/2021 17:59

But again the trope that no feminists are not concerned with all aspects of female safety in prison.

I am sure that Julie Bindel and Rhona Hotchkiss will be pleased to know they are only focused on preventing males from being incarcerated in female prisons.

barleybadminton · 28/12/2021 18:05

@Helleofabore

likely to be fully transitioned

Really? When around 95% keep their penises?

What do you call fully transitioned?

Another made up statistics I note.

And yes, physical transition is one of the criteria the prison service looks at when decided where to place a trans prisoner.

The criteria used for assessing the potential risks of placing a trans women in a women's prison are as follows:

(*indicates critical factors)
• *Offending history, including index offence, past convictions and intelligence of
potential criminal activity- e.g. credible accusations.
• *Anatomy, including considerations of physical strength and genitalia;
• * Sexual behaviours and relationships within custodial/residential settings;
• *Use of medication relating to gender reassignment; and use of medication generally;
• *Past behaviour in custody, the community, in the care of the police, or in the care of
prisoner escort services;
• *Intelligence reports;
• *Evidence of threats towards others
• *Mental health and personality disorder;
• Learning disabilities or difficulties;
• Substance misuse.

You can view the current policies here: assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf

VestofAbsurdity · 28/12/2021 18:06

The truth is the vast amount of women prisoners will probably never even come across a trans women, and if they do it's likely to be someone fiully transitioned and serving time for a non violent offence.

Oh do stop, the majority of TW prisoners are incarcerated for sexual offences. TW show the exact same criminal tendencies as men who are not TW.

There are very strict vetting rules, which have rightfully been strengthened after procedues were not followed in the Karen White case. There have been no reported incidents since then.

Really, you sure about that? Could you provide the evidence? The vetting rules are not strict as was amply demonstrated in the Judicial Review against the MoJ and that woman prisoner had been sexually assaulted and not by Karen White.

Irrespective of the assaults women prisoners are not there to validate males who feel like a woman.

There should be no male prisoners whatever their professed identity or GRC status in the female prison estate. Either build a separate TW prison block within the male estate or place the TW in the existing male estate, and as most of them have committed sex crimes then they will be held on the existing separate wings with all the other male sex offenders.

All prisons should be made safer for the inmates, placing TW prisoners who are sex offenders into the female prison estate and offering up the women incarcerated there as potential victims has made the female prison estate far more dangerous for the women in there, again the Judge in the Judicial Review stated that fact.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/12/2021 18:11

The truth is the vast amount of women prisoners will probably never even come across a trans women

There are 12 women's prisons in England and Wales, containing a population of 3, 273 women, according to this month's population spreadsheets.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1041887/prison-pop-17-december-2021.ods

Assuming for the ease of calculations that women are evenly distributed across the prisons and that the prisons are of equal size, that is 272-273 women per prison.

It has also been cited that there are 125 transgender male prisoners in England and Wales. If all were placed in the women's estate and divided evenly across the facilities, that would be ten male prisoners per prison of 270 women.

I think the women would "come across" the male prisoners.

This is a report I read a while back, published in 2016. I'm certain you're familiar with the work of the Howard League, Barley, yes?

This is a briefing paper published by the Commission in Sex in Prison, established by the Howard League for Penal Reform to undertake the first ever review of sex inside prison.
howardleague.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Coercive-sex-in-prison.pdf

This is a table from it. Observe the number of assaults recorded in the women's estate in 2012 and 2013. Please explain to me how placing male prisoners in the women's estate has improved these numbers.

Is it only white middle class women who are GC?
Helleofabore · 28/12/2021 18:16

You disagree that 95% of males identifying as women keep their penises?

Ok.

Please provide evidence that disputes this.

And thanks for providing the criteria. However. ‘Fully transitioned’ means different things to different people. Let’s just stick with how many still have a penis to start with.

So, how many have their penis removed?

No deflections please.

And then, please provide the evidence that losing that penis has reduced the power and strength of that male compared to females? Because a male without a penis is still likely to be stronger than a female and present a safeguarding risk.

barleybadminton · 28/12/2021 18:17

It has also been cited that there are 125 transgender male prisoners in England and Wales. If all were placed in the women's estate and divided evenly across the facilities, that would be ten male prisoners per prison of 270 women.

But they haven't all been placed in the women's estate. About 22 of them have, after very strict vetting.

barleybadminton · 28/12/2021 18:19

Please provide evidence that disputes this.

It's generally accepted that if you make a claim then it's down to you to provide the evidence which supports it. I am not aware of any such evidence. In fact given no-one knows for sure how many trans women exist in the UK, let alone how many have had surgery, then such a claim cannot possibly be made.

Helleofabore · 28/12/2021 18:22

Please explain to me how placing male prisoners in the women's estate has improved these numbers.

Yes. Still waiting for the specific benefits for females in accepting males into the female prison estate.

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