Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

[Ziegfeld]

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

And as we have seen from many posters on MN FWR many people are either working to directly help women in need AND activating to ensure all females are getting the rights they need / maintaining those rights already established.

And there are many well known feminists who are also working for both. 600 people attended a seminar held to discuss prison reform recently. Rhona Hotchkiss and Julie Bindel are just two.

(By the way. It was protested by trans activists who mocked women, mocked lesbians and even abused the other people attending a different conference.)

The prejudice some posters have against women fighting to ensure that females can maintain their rights, those that are there to address the needs they have due to sexist discrimination because of their sexed body, where those rights conflict with other groups is apparent in their derisive posts.

The snideness is never far from their posts. And they continue to make negative generalisations in an attempt to silence and shame.

Thank you purgatory for posting that.

The 'rich white overprivileged bored mummies with no grip on reality' thing is being given a real try as the new way to avoid having to listen to women, isn't it?

Yeah, no.

Try something else. You missed out the accusations about right wing, anti abortion, in bed with the Russians/Trump/the Klingons/Mrs Cake, American Christian extremism and whether women have souls, chop chop.

Post 2:

Firstly they will not be required to share cells with trans women

Is this a personal guarantee? What power do you have to enforce this promise?

extract

United States — Olympia, Washington.

A level 1 sex offender convicted of the rape of a 12-year-old girl was transferred to a women’s prison, where he groomed and raped a woman who is developmentally disabled and a survivor of sexual abuse, a commercial radio station and editorial publication are reporting. Hobbie Bingham was convicted in Louisiana in 2003 for the offense of Carnal Knowledge Of A Juvenile. He was imprisoned for just two years, with a judge handing him a six-year sentence with four years suspended. Mr Bingham was also required to register as a low-level sex offender.

While imprisoned again for further offenses, Mr Bingham, who had by then begun identifying as a woman named Princess Zoee Andromeda Love, became one of three male inmates in the state of Washington whose request for transfer to women’s prison was granted after January 1, 2021, responsive documents obtained by Women’s Liberation Front (WoLF) from the Washington State Department of Corrections (WADOC) revealed in May.

According to the “Dori Monson Show” on KIRO Radio, an anonymous employee found Mr Andromeda Love having “sex” with a female inmate. The National Review yesterday revealed that the discovery of the two, who had been cellmates for a week, “unclothed” and in bed together was made by a female officer. The National Review obtained an incident summary, which disclosed that Mr Andromeda Love had convinced the woman, who had the “disposition of a young child,” that the pair were “soulmates.” Scott Fleming, who worked as a guard at the prison at the time and learned of the incident from the officer who discovered the cellmates in bed, said he observed it as a “predator/victim interaction post-assault,” rather than “two inmates in love, after having consensual intercourse.”

Continue reading Male Rapist of 12-Year-Old Girl Groomed Vulnerable Woman While in Women’s Prison | Women Are Human. Read more at: www.womenarehuman.com/male-rapist-of-12-year-old-girl-groomed-vulnerable-woman-while-in-womens-prison/

Not RTFT but I am brown and GC.

I shouldn't bother trying Janis I could list all my various characteristics too as evidence, but if we were listened to, you'd find you were the 'wrong kind of brown'.

This isn't a two way conversation.

Post 3

They may not like trans women in the women's system, or they may well not care, but I'm willing to bet if you actually asked women in prison what could be done to improve their lives then getting rid of the trans women would be pretty low down the list compared to better food, more recreation and education, shorter and more home-based sentences etc

Your wording betrays you there. As can be seen, you haven't asked and you are speculating that they do not care.

I, on the other hand, have asked. I happened to already know women who have previously been incarcerated before I started posting on here, and it is in part the trans activists' casual and blasé attitude to incarcerated women's dignity and safety that has led me here.

Talking of "recreation and education" for incarcerated women, did you notice the special building for transwomen prisoners that was set up few years back in the grounds of a women's prison? At HMP Downview. That land was taken from the facilities for women there. Certainly not available for recreation after that, was it. I've seen claims that there were originally plan to place educational facilities there for the women.

But those plans were sacrificed to serve a small group of male prisoners instead.

@Artichokeleaves

I shouldn't bother trying Janis I could list all my various characteristics too as evidence, but if we were listened to, you'd find you were the 'wrong kind of brown'.

This isn't a two way conversation.

I guess so. I think I became GC only after reading the various threads on MN in the last year or so. Before that, I have to admit I hadn't given this whole matter much thought.

Thank you. That's a really good reminder that even when it seems pointless trying to argue that other women are here listening even when this particular political lobby aren't.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Post 3

They may not like trans women in the women's system, or they may well not care, but I'm willing to bet if you actually asked women in prison what could be done to improve their lives then getting rid of the trans women would be pretty low down the list compared to better food, more recreation and education, shorter and more home-based sentences etc

Your wording betrays you there. As can be seen, you haven't asked and you are speculating that they do not care.

I, on the other hand, have asked. I happened to already know women who have previously been incarcerated before I started posting on here, and it is in part the trans activists' casual and blasé attitude to incarcerated women's dignity and safety that has led me here.

Talking of "recreation and education" for incarcerated women, did you notice the special building for transwomen prisoners that was set up few years back in the grounds of a women's prison? At HMP Downview. That land was taken from the facilities for women there. Certainly not available for recreation after that, was it. I've seen claims that there were originally plan to place educational facilities there for the women.

But those plans were sacrificed to serve a small group of male prisoners instead.

Worth mentioning too: this unit never came to fruition anyway and was never used for its purpose.

The TW, who were too high risk to be permitted into the female estate, were to have had that unit to have enabled them to be in the estate in a safer way for the female prisoners.

The TW however fought it legally on the grounds of discrimination, and won, and went into the female estate risks and all.

Whopping waste of money, resources, attempts to balance needs, and as usual females ended up being nothing more than a resource for a group of males whose voices and political clout wholly outweighs females. Their wishes matter more than the safety of any female in that estate.

Post 4

extract

ACalifornia lawallowing transgender inmates to pick the prison gender of their choice has come under fire from a women’s rights group citing abuse of females by men.

Ina letterto Gov. Gavin Newsom, theWomen’s Liberation Frontaccused the state of violating the constitutional rights of incarcerated women by allowing men into their living quarters to “prey on women.” Since the law took effect on Jan. 1, WLF has received numerous complaints of assaulted, abused, and traumatized women at the hands of male inmates transferred into their prisons, WoLF Legal Director Lauren Adams said.

“We are working with a woman who was punched in the face so hard by a new transfer that she couldn’t chew for three days. He was taken away and released back in a different yard with no restrictions,” Adams said. “He was her cellmate. She had to sleep with him.”

Other women have been sexually abused in the past and must now contend with nude men sharing communal showers, Adams said.

“One woman went in there with two naked men showering who still had penises,” Adams added. “It was incredibly traumatic and scary, to know for, [possibly], the rest of their lives they are going to be subjected to this.”

The state currently has 273 transfer requests; 266 are from people housed at male institutions requesting to be transferred to a female institution, and seven are from people at female institutions requesting to be transferred to a male institution, according to the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. California has 1,286 inmates identified as transgender or nonbinary.

Currently, 24 male prisoners have been transferred to female institutions. WoLF theorizes that many men transferring into women’s prisons are not transgender but are just trying to escape their current living situation.

“A lot of these men checking the box and trying to get transfers are probably trying to save their lives. I wouldn’t want to be in the men’s prison,” Adams said. “You are giving them a way to get out of that, but now it’s the women who are in danger.”

Most women in state prison have been abused at some point in their lives, and many have endured sexual assaults. Having to sleep in a cell with a man or shower with them is traumatic, Adams said.

State law requires a committee to vet the transfers, but a large number of men who got through have violent pasts. For example, one male transfer was convicted of assaulting two boys aged 6 and 8. Another had multiple counts of forcible rape, and he still had his penis, Adams said.

A CDCR spokesperson told the Washington Examiner the transfer process includes “a thorough review of the incarcerated person’s history prior to and during incarceration, their crime, arrest and criminal history, trial and sentencing documentation, medical and mental health needs ...”

WoLF is asking the governor to halt all new transfers and remove the inmates who have already transferred until a safety assessment can be made.

CDCR did not respond to a request for comment as of press time.

Continues
news.yahoo.com/newsom-needs-halt-transgender-mixing-201200699.html

Not RTFT but I am brown and GC.

Also not RTFT, white, MC and GC here. Should I be ashamed? It seems to be a way of saying "shut up women".

they will not be required to share cells with trans women

I look forward to seeing the proof of this claim.

But even so, we have had posters who have come onto MN to tell us their experience of being imprisoned with transitioned males. One in particular stands out. They relayed their experience of the male who targeted them by showering in full view with their erect penis being exhibited. They may or may not have been one of the witnesses in the MoJ case.

What exactly is in it for females to have males included in their prison estate? Specific benefits please.

And thank you purgatory for posting your extracts for others to follow along.

@lovelyweathertoday

Not RTFT but I am brown and GC.

Also not RTFT, white, MC and GC here. Should I be ashamed? It seems to be a way of saying "shut up women".

Indeed it is.

Everyone these days is entitled to safe spaces, except... women. Especially white, middle-class women, they aren't entitled to human rights sexually intimidating behaviour, apparently.

So say the soi-disa

*so say the soi-disant campaigners for a fairer world.

You really have to question the values of someone who measures humanity and worth by the colour of your skin, your income, your biology and the accident of your birth. Rights only for the right colour/income/class/politics.

@lovelyweathertoday

Not RTFT but I am brown and GC.

Also not RTFT, white, MC and GC here. Should I be ashamed? It seems to be a way of saying "shut up women".

I agree. I am on Twitter a lot and "white MC woman" seems to be used to shut up a lot of GC women who are talking sense. I think a lot of brown women are also interested in safe spaces for all women of all races. Though it may be that some of us have woken up to this issue a bit later because we have so many other problems in our own communities.

@Artichokeleaves

You really have to question the values of someone who measures humanity and worth by the colour of your skin, your income, your biology and the accident of your birth. Rights only for the right colour/income/class/politics.

These people seem to have a very discriminatory way of being anti-discrimination.

they will not be required to share cells with trans women

I hope this is true. But isn't this an interesting comment from barley?

Effectively saying TWANW. (Because otherwise why wouldn't women be required to share with TW?)

At least we can agree on something.

And yet in a post a little earlier barley implied that they thought that a "women's" hostel which admitted TW was 'single sex'.

Barley seems to be getting a little confused about whether they think that TWAW or TWANW.

Sadly, like many instances when someone has entered a thread with the intent to shame, the answer for how many women who are NOT white, MC whatever, will it take before the trope stops being rolled out is n+1. As always, it is never enough to stop the propaganda being spread.

The group A Woman's Place had a meeting about welfare for women in prison which discussed multiple issues.

One meeting, by one group, it's pretty clear what the priority is for the gender critical movement and it's not improving the living standards of working class women.

In truth, were the gender critical movement to meet its aims - if the GRA was scrapped, and laws introduced to prohibit trans people using spaces inline with their gender - then the vast majority of working class women would not notice. It would not affect their lives in the least. Or anyone elses really except trans people - male violence would certainly continue unabated, as would poverty, homelessness, racism, poor healthcare and inequality. Whereas the restoration of a functional benefits system, the provision of adequate childcare, a mass social housing building programme (as some examples), a rooting out of racists in the police would make a huge difference. None of the women in my social circle, all of them working class incidentally, give a shit about trans issues and resent being told they must to be a proper feminist. They care about poverty, and the housing shortage, and crap pay and abusive bosses and landlords - the things which actually affect the lives of the working class.

From this perspective the gender critical movement is open to all the criticisms originally made about white feminism - that the white middle class experience is assumed to be universal, that white middle class women can't also be oppressors, that the needs of white middle class women represent the needs of all women, that feminism should only be concerned with protecting women and not wider social injustice such as racism or economic inquality etc etc. And I guess that's why its often perceived as being a white middle class movement.

Didn't this used to be called snobbery? The mass rejection of people as inferior on basis of class? Think negative generalisations also against the guidelines.

Most women in prison would rather not be there, and would rather have not had the lives that led them there. It is those primarily economic matters which tend to be the main focus.. They may not like trans women in the women's system, or they may well not care, but I'm willing to bet if you actually asked women in prison what could be done to improve their lives then getting rid of the trans women would be pretty low down the list

Well guess what they have been asked, it had to be done confidentially as those women prisoners were afraid of repercussions and surprise, fucking surprise not having to share their spaces with male prisoners who identify as women was at the top of the list.

No doubt you will hand wave that away as you do with everything else.

@Helleofabore

Sadly, like many instances when someone has entered a thread with the intent to shame, the answer for how many women who are NOT white, MC whatever, will it take before the trope stops being rolled out is n+1. As always, it is never enough to stop the propaganda being spread.

Isn’t it just. Males used my WC background as a reason to dismiss what I had to say. Now they say I’m too articulate so decide I’m MC and use that against me.

I’m no longer interested in their opinion