Is being trans a choice?

[user888]

Spotted in Does anyone ever wonder how this will end? Thought it might be worth its own thread. Maybe not. We'll see.

Can you define “trans” for us? Miranda Yardley suffered from gender dysphroria and decided to transition.

I think for genuine "trans" people it is no more a choice than having an eating disorder is a choice.

I think there are others who chose it as a lifestyle choice.

I think there are others, particularly children, who have it chosen for them because they don't match what parents think are correct girl or boy behaviour or characteristics.

From what I saw of that part of the discussion, it was more to do with it being a choice for predatory men taking advantage of the concept of self ID to say that they are trans rather than it being a choice for people who are transgender.

But then, with self ID, that's the issue isn't it?

@Frenchfancy

I think for genuine "trans" people it is no more a choice than having an eating disorder is a choice.

I think there are others who chose it as a lifestyle choice.

I think there are others, particularly children, who have it chosen for them because they don't match what parents think are correct girl or boy behaviour or characteristics.

Yes, I’d agree with this

No, I don't think it's a choice for people with gender dysphoria.

Nor is it a choice for people who happen to like things that society normally associates with the opposite sex to themselves.

But neither of those things actually makes anyone the opposite sex.

Is it more of a label forced on children/ people.

Look at this 80s poster of a little girl. She would be labelled trans / gender non conforming now?

Nor is it a choice for people who happen to like things that society normally associates with the opposite sex to themselves. - is that a definition of trans now?

I'll have a read.

All this has fucked things for those with sex dysphoria.

If you can go between boy and girl mode on a daily basis then that feels pretty choicy.

Also women get called Cis even if they say they don't ID as cis, or are agender etc.

So as usual women get told what they are, no choice.

Duno, ask Pips?

I believe that there is a huge capacity for genuine gender dysphoria to be abused at will for various reasons.

Whether it be autogynaephilia, sex offenders getting hold of fresh victims in prisons, vouyers or exhibitionists having free reign, males exploiting loopholes to access and win in women's sports, or simply men who despise women wanting to make them uncomfortable.

I believe that there are and always have been genuine cases. I have no idea how you differentiate.

I would say it's probably not a choice but it is also probably not innate

No, dysphorias aren't a choice.

How a person behaves to others, in particular in relation to infringing their rights and liberties, is a choice. Males taking part in women's sports, to take an obvious example - they're choosing to put what they want above women's rights. There are honourable transwomen who choose not to even though they might be allowed to under current rules.

@user888

Spotted in Does anyone ever wonder how this will end? Thought it might be worth its own thread. Maybe not. We'll see.

Being trans is a "choice" in the same way being gay is a "choice".

You cannot actually choose how you feel. That nagging feeling will be there no matter what. You can only to choose how open you are about it.

That's why it's cruel to expect either gay or trans people to repress that part of their identity, to force them to live a lie.

Well I could say I am trans. That would be my choice to do that or not. Being trans is really only about a declaration, I wouldn’t actually have to do anything else, just say I’m a man with moobs and a mangina or that I am non-binary. I could continue doing everything else in my life just as I always have done. So to say the words or not feels like a choice to me. Well I say that it feels like a choice I could make, to say the words yes, but I think that it is easier for a man to say he is a woman and change nothing yet be acknowledged as a woman than it would be for me to say I am a man and be acknowledged as a man without changing anything.

I don’t feel that I have a choice over my sexual orientation. It is more concrete and objective.

I don't care how you choose to present. Wear what you want do the hobbies you like.
But don't think your choices entitle you to women's sex based rights.
And don't encourage vulnerable young people to have experimental hormones and surgery.
The only reason I care is because of the dismantling of sex based rights and safeguarding. I couldn't care less if it is innate or a fashion choice, as long as both the above are respected.
Of course I reserve the right to think it's based in misogyny, but as an adult I tend to keep opinions like that about misogynistic religions to myself and close heathens.
You can exist without ensuring the extinction of women's sports, safe spaces. That'd be just peachy.

I think it probably is for some people. Transitioning is obviously a choice, as is the extent to which you transition (surgery or not etc). Having feelings of dysphoria clearly isn't a choice. But if you look at the Stonewall definition of who's included in the trans umbrella, it's pretty clear that it's not just people with dysphoria.

@DaisiesandButtercups
"Being trans is really only about a declaration, I wouldn’t actually have to do anything else, just say I’m a man with moobs and a mangina or that I am non-binary. I could continue doing everything else in my life just as I always have done."

And if you never had a partner yet, how is that any different from declaring yourself gay? Should everyone around you constantly question whether you're actually gay until you finally find a partner?

I think the expansion of the definition of trans has had a huge impact here.

Originally, “trans” was definitively related to the act of transitioning.

Gender dysphoria (or whatever word is used to describe distress related to your sexed body) isn’t a choice.

But obviously the act of transitioning is a choice.

Unfortunately, there has been a massive blurring of the lines since then, so that “trans” seems to now be considered to be some immutable character trait, and it has been suggested that “being trans” is as unchangable as being gay.

Confusion has been observed however, in people who transitioned and then went on to develop dementia. There is some suggestion that those who have medically transitioned sometimes forget their chosen “gender identity” and become distressed by seeing the wrong anatomy and by wearing clothes they see as being for the inappropriate sex. This suggests to me that “being trans”, unlike sexual orientation, is not something so innate that it survives the confusion of dementia, but is more likely a conscious choice that is taken to alleviate some type of distress or for other reasons that are discussed less.

That doesn’t make it wrong to transition. But I don’t think “being trans” is a definitive state. My personal suspicion is that the internal feeling of “being trans” is a descriptive name given to all kinds of diverse feelings surrounding a sexed body that, for whatever reason, the affected person would like to change or deny.

Of course not. Because being gay means you are attracted to people of the same sex as you, not that you have had sex with someone of the same sex as you.

But surely it would be pretty odd for a man to say "I am trans" or "I am a woman" while doing absolutely nothing whatsoever to present as female? I mean... if a transwoman is not biologically female, doesn't dress like a woman, call himself a female name, use female pronouns etc etc... what is it that he thinks is making him a woman?

That's why it's cruel to expect either gay or trans people to repress that part of their identity, to force them to live a lie.

I do believe that those who suffer from gender dysphoria have no choice in the matter and that their only recourse is to live as if they were a member of the opposite sex. However, I am not sure that you can really compare this to being gay. Homosexual people's physical attraction to people of the same sex is not really an identity, they don't identify as homosexual, it is their physical bodies that react by only being sexually stimulated by a same sex body. In the case of people who identify as a person of the opposite sex , they have no way of knowing what this actually means . A male bodied person cannot understand what having a female body is like and vice versa. They can only live their life in a manner which they believe replicates the way a person of that sex lives.

No, dysphorias aren't a choice.

Having gender dysphoria doesn't equal transgender though. There are surely some people with gender dysphoria who never transition, and find other ways of coping with it. Are they trans? I'd argue not.

I think being trans is a choice, and often it's one that is made in good faith.

Well lazylinguist that is a very good question but as I understand it only the individual knows the answer to the secret gender essence of the soul within. Some say that all that is needed to be a man is a desire to be sexually dominant and if you are sexually submissive then that is what makes you a woman.

“And if you never had a partner yet, how is that any different from declaring yourself gay? Should everyone around you constantly question whether you're actually gay until you finally find a partner?”

Well I know which sex I am attracted to even if I have never acted on it and to be honest I don’t feel the need to declare my sexual orientation, it doesn’t require “validation” from others whether I act on it on not.

Obviously not.

I don't think there's such a think as "being trans". It's a lumping together of a variety of different things - some people have dysphoria about their body, some have a fetish, for some people it's a trendy way to be special, for some people it's a way of controlling others. I don't believe in trans, just like I don't believe in souls.