Is being trans a choice?

[user888]

Spotted in Does anyone ever wonder how this will end? Thought it might be worth its own thread. Maybe not. We'll see.

Is anorexia a choice? No, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to stop eating. Same for gender dysphoria.

Sexuality is physical.

You see boys/ girls when young and you fancy them. You see pop stars and film stars and etc. And you fancy some of them.

After puberty you get physical responses and reactions. You think about touching or being touched. if young maybe you think about snogging. holding hands, back in the the day. You get crushes.

You can get aroused thinking about certain people.

You have certain thoughts and images when you masturbate. (Porn may have fucked this up a bit).

Get crushes on, long for, imagine being with people of the same sex?
Opposite sex?
Both sexes?

There's words for that (or used to be words).

How does a person of one sex know they feel like the opposite sex? How can they know how the opposite sex feels?

Yes people have sex dysphoria and it must be awful.
But they are the sex they are. No one has any idea how it feels to be ANYONE else. How could we?

Gender dysphoria...
The definition for gender keeps morphing.
Currently it is the strongly held feeling inside of being a boy/ man or woman/ girl that is established from age 2.

What does that mean in practice? What... What does that mean?

Being gay = I am sexually attracted to those of the same sex. I do not sexually desire the opposite sex. (It used to mean that anyway). That is tangible.

There is NO decent answer that I have seen as to what 'feeling like' a man or a woman actually means, how it manifests. Without reference to stereotypes, sex role, discomfort with the way people of your sex are expected to behave.

As a reminder according to stonewall I am trans.

These are the questions a trans person is asking. I mean. According to stonewall and other groups.

@teezletangler

No, dysphorias aren't a choice.

Having gender dysphoria doesn't equal transgender though. There are surely some people with gender dysphoria who never transition, and find other ways of coping with it. Are they trans? I'd argue not.

I think being trans is a choice, and often it's one that is made in good faith.

I agree with lots of comments but I agree with this one the most.

Dysphoria and dysmorphia are not choices, however presenting as you feel comfortable, are.

So with that, being trans, to me, is a choice and it's an ok choice to make if it helps that person... As long as it doesn't stomp on any sex based rights or put people at unnecessary risk.

Well sure agree.

Although many of the interpretations of how women dress and behave are quite frankly on a scale from odd to deeply grossly offensive.

So that's a bit of an issue.

The blank blank eyes one I always remember.

I mean FFS.

In short.

Self ID which is s done deal all around the place means. Your question is irrelevant.

I say I'm a gay man. I go to s gay club. I'm obviously female. But my id must be respected.

And that's the end of it.

A thread recently made me wonder. A person was saying that they identified as male, and they were having a relationship with a woman. They were complaining that their mother was "homophobic" and critical of the relationship since it was same-sex. But I couldn't help thinking, "if you are now male, how is it same sex ?"

My mind just goes blurry when this topic comes up. My granddaughter tells me that a lot of kids at school are trans, some are thinking of taking the medications and getting mastectomies because of this . Heaven help us .

@starrynight21

A thread recently made me wonder. A person was saying that they identified as male, and they were having a relationship with a woman. They were complaining that their mother was "homophobic" and critical of the relationship since it was same-sex. But I couldn't help thinking, "if you are now male, how is it same sex ?"

My mind just goes blurry when this topic comes up. My granddaughter tells me that a lot of kids at school are trans, some are thinking of taking the medications and getting mastectomies because of this . Heaven help us .

I saw that thread.

I have to say, I'm not sure that ftm transitioner was typical. That particular poster was clear they were biologically female, although they identified as a man. Most people on this board would agree with that - the majority here believe that a person can't change sex, no matter how that person 'identifies' what hormones they take.

However, in general, a person who identifies as a man would consider their own relationship with a woman to be heterosexual.

The comparison was made with "gay", and whether that's a choice.

The difference is that for "gay", it doesn't matter whether it is or not.

We dealt with the gay rights movement by establishing universal rights. Anyone can get married to anyone regardless of sex. You cannot be discriminated against for the sex of your partner.

No-one gets special privileges by calling themselves "gay", so there's no problem. People can choose to call themselves gay, despite not being, and... nothing happens.

And everyone being able to have a same-sex partner despite not being oriented that way causes no more problem than everyone being able to have an opposite-sex partner despite not being oriented that way. This universal rights expansion causes no direct issues.

For "trans" it becomes an issue because people think they need special rights for "trans" people. Which is going to make people choose to identify as it. "Trans people should be allowed into opposite-sex spaces", apparently. The whole thing falls apart, because you're attaching meaning to the label, so obviously people will choose to apply the label, as it gives them something. Lots of straight men want to get into female spaces. (Is that a "choice"?)

If you just stated what you want in form of a universal right - "anyone should be able to enter any space regardless of their sex, but we should retain the male and female labelling of spaces" - then it would make sense, and would avoid the need to debate what "trans" is, or if it's a choice. Still a bad policy proposal though.

Does the answer to the question lessen the impact on women's rights, spaces and sport and on children's safeguarding? If it does then I'm all ears, because this is why I'm here. If it doesn't then, interesting as it might be, it's not a priority for me right now.

Dysphoria is a symptom. There will be an underlying cause probably found in childhood. Abuse, anxiety, society telling you that you are wrong. It isn't a stand alone condition
Trans that doesn't stem from dysphoria is more about choice and society. It appears that homophobic abuse is as bad as ever yet bring trans is celebrated
Girls are inundated with sexualised images and expectations. Identifying as trans gives them a ticket out of those expectations
For those who are consumed by fetish it provides a more wholesome cover
For those who hate women it's a way to throw abuse whilst claiming to be progressive

Having dysphoria is not a choice.
There are choices, though heavily peer influenced ones, around how you interpret those feelings and what you do about them.

And to some extent there is a feedback loop. If you interpret your dysphoria as "male brain in female body"/"I'm actually male", the human pattern matching computer will keep picking out patterns that match that conclusion, and specially if you socially transition and others address you as male that reinforces your feeling of being male and so reinforces the dysphoria when you are reminded your body is female. Whereas watchful waiting lessens the feedback loop so increases the chance you can move on from the dysphoria.

If you feel dysphoria but say okay, stuck with this female body, medical transition too medically unpleasant, but no need to pander to stereotypes in any way - you may be described as butch or heterosexual equivalent, not trans.

I think it's such a shame medical transition started to emerge just when we were starting to get to the point in time where being a butch woman/feminine man was not frowned on by society. Maybe we could indeed have got to a place where your dress sense and interests aren't expected to be confined by your sex. Instead we now seem to be in a place where children are being told to modify their secondary sex characteristics to match their fashion choices.

I don't think there's such a think as "being trans". It's a lumping together of a variety of different things - some people have dysphoria about their body, some have a fetish, for some people it's a trendy way to be special, for some people it's a way of controlling others. I don't believe in trans, just like I don't believe in souls.

Same here, I completely agree with your post.

I "happen to like things that society normally (or used to) associates with the opposite sex" but I am an adult human female aka woman and have never felt any issue with that, outside of the frustrations of being a woman in a misogynistic society. Aren't we trying to get away from random and harmful stereotypes anyway? I'd much rather people were themselves and showed their personality in their choice of clothes, hobbies, jobs in whichever way worked for them, irrespective of sex.

I personally believe that a small minority of genuine trans identifying people have gender dysphoria, a mental health issue, which is only a thing if you live by sex-based stereotypes and getting rid of them would help ease this. So I don't feel they have a choice and I put them in the same category as people with eating disorders, they need therapy, primarily.

I think for all the rest it's a lifestyle choice, that has got out of hand. I also think for many it's become linked to sexuality and for some, regressive imo, reason it's become more socially acceptable for young gay people to say they're trans rather than gay. I know increasing number of young women who would have presented as butch lesbians when I was their age who now say they are "transitioning". This just seems to involve calling themselves say George instead of Georgina and dressing very stereotypicaly male with shaved head and tattoos. I really don't see the difference and I don't think this is anything to do with gender dysphoria. Same with the beta male incel types dressing stereotypically female with or without breast implants.

No, I don't think being genuinely trans is a choice.

Transitioning is a choice, considering transfolk lived their whole lives as a member of their biological sex in years gone past.

@Frenchfancy

I think for genuine "trans" people it is no more a choice than having an eating disorder is a choice.

I think there are others who chose it as a lifestyle choice.

I think there are others, particularly children, who have it chosen for them because they don't match what parents think are correct girl or boy behaviour or characteristics.

This.

Feeling strongly that you want to wear things and do activities that are usually associated with the opposite sex is not a choice, demanding to be perceived as the other sex because of those feelings is a choice.

I watched Kinky Boots yesterday (it’s on the BBC iPlayer at the minute) and it was so refreshing to see the main character was clear throughout the film that he was a man who liked women’s clothes and how they made him feel, I’m not sure that film could be made now without being accused of being transphobic.

[quote CuriousPanda]@DaisiesandButtercups
"Being trans is really only about a declaration, I wouldn’t actually have to do anything else, just say I’m a man with moobs and a mangina or that I am non-binary. I could continue doing everything else in my life just as I always have done."

And if you never had a partner yet, how is that any different from declaring yourself gay? Should everyone around you constantly question whether you're actually gay until you finally find a partner?[/quote]
A statement about what you subjectively experience is different from a statement about who you are, and it’s very different from a demand that others validate your concept of who you are by playing along.

“I like pizza” - who’s going to argue with that? It would be deeply rude to do so.

“I am a pizza” - I have a problem with this statement, because I don’t agree you are a pizza. I have a definition of pizza, I’ve seen pizzas before, you don’t meet the criteria.

“I am a pizza and you are morally obligated to sprinkle cheese on me” - just fuck off.

“I am a pizza and you are morally obligated to sprinkle cheese on me” - just fuck off.

Good points allmywhat and NecessaryScene

@OneEpisode

Can you define “trans” for us? Miranda Yardley suffered from gender dysphroria and decided to transition.

I didn’t define “trans” because it was just as interesting to me how people would respond to the question phrased that way. Anyway, thanks for the replies – I’m surprised there were even this many.