Is being trans a choice?

[user888]

Spotted in Does anyone ever wonder how this will end? Thought it might be worth its own thread. Maybe not. We'll see.

@IsItAKindofDream
Men need to push back against being stereotypically “masculine” - while staying as “men”.

Why? Why do people have to conform to the labels you want to impose on them? Why does anyone have to "stay as men" when they don't want to?

And men and women need to support them in that.

Well, you're not exactly supporting anyone when you're calling them "fetishists".

Penis people coming by far the majority of violent crime in this country.

As a vagina person, being a woman by sex (a protected characteristic) I should not be discriminated against by being forced to share safe spaces with people with a penis.

Separate and equal safe spaces with tailored facilities are appropriate.

@NiceGerbil

And then this comes along and...

Sex is trivial
Internal gender is all that matters
Any discussion about our rights- the oppression because of our sex. Cannot mention women or girls.
We must be called menstruators, people with a womb etc. We must be referred to by the very organs that are the reason for our poor treatment.

Nope, no one is saying you have to be referred as a person who menstruates in any context other than discussing menstruation specifically.

These are strictly medical terms for use in strictly medical context.

If it's female people who are subject to X, and not males.

Then there are no acceptable terms any more.

Even using juvenile / adult females is a problem as many are now using female to include transwomen.

As girl/ woman means identity which you can't know until you ask, and the thing is related to sex. Those words are not correct. Because males irrespective of identity are not subject to it.

Words have meanings. To change meanings and then say oh but you can use them for the old meanings as well. Makes no sense. There is no clarity.

When a school for juvenile human females is bombed. The action is based on the belief that they should not be educated. The children are female sex. So they can't be referred to as girls.

When you're, for instance, using a bathroom, what genitals other people have in their pants is really none of your business.

So, you are out with your 9-year old niece, and she goes into a public toilet on her own. A person with a penis follows her in. Do you
A) Go into the toilet with her to check she is safe
B) Not worry - most penis owners are harmless so her Mum won’t mind you not checking she is OK?

B.
New rule.
Penises are just skin. Girls should be taught not to react if an unexpected one is there.

@Chickenyhead

Penis people coming by far the majority of violent crime in this country.

As a vagina person, being a woman by sex (a protected characteristic) I should not be discriminated against by being forced to share safe spaces with people with a penis.

Separate and equal safe spaces with tailored facilities are appropriate.

Using crime statistics as a justification for prejudice and discrimination is a practice I would rather not enable.

And neither is the idea of "separate but equal". Or the idea that being forced to share spaces, rather than excluding people from them, is what constitutes discrimination.

@NiceGerbil

B. New rule. Penises are just skin. Girls should be taught not to react if an unexpected one is there.

Not on my watch.

Having been raped and sexually assaulted several times.

[quote CuriousPanda]@IsItAKindofDream
Men need to push back against being stereotypically “masculine” - while staying as “men”.

Why? Why do people have to conform to the labels you want to impose on them? Why does anyone have to "stay as men" when they don't want to?

And men and women need to support them in that.

Well, you're not exactly supporting anyone when you're calling them "fetishists".[/quote]
“Man” is not a label imposed on someone. It is a biological description.
If you can’t see that, I really can’t help you.

But, you are right, 85% or more of transwomen are autogynephiles - having a sexual fetish about seeing themselves as women. Many transwomen publicly talk about this. E.g. The artist and TV personality, Grayson Perry. Most retain their penis.

@NiceGerbil

If it's female people who are subject to X, and not males.

Then there are no acceptable terms any more.

Even using juvenile / adult females is a problem as many are now using female to include transwomen.

As girl/ woman means identity which you can't know until you ask, and the thing is related to sex. Those words are not correct. Because males irrespective of identity are not subject to it.

Words have meanings. To change meanings and then say oh but you can use them for the old meanings as well. Makes no sense. There is no clarity.

When a school for juvenile human females is bombed. The action is based on the belief that they should not be educated. The children are female sex. So they can't be referred to as girls.

Trans people would be significantly more receptive to using "male" and "female" to denote biology (although it's still a bit more complex than that) if you weren't so insistent on making the social labels and identities of "man" and "women" contingent on being "male" or "female".

But since "woman = adult human female" became a rallying cry for your movement, any such compromise has since become an impossibility.

Well that makes no sense.

Transwomen are Transwomen.

Women by sex are women by sex.

There is no overlap.

Separate protected characteristics.

A post puberty Transwomen has absolutely no idea how it feels to be a woman in a society filled with violence committed by much stronger penis havers. None.

@IsItAKindofDream
But, you are right, 85% or more of transwomen are autogynephiles - having a sexual fetish about seeing themselves as women.

And for as long as you argue this, you are simply enforcing rigid gender roles and attempting to push trans women back into the closet.

Most retain their penis.

And?

Women by sex should not be forced to share safe spaces with people who have a penis.

EVER

It is male entitlement. We see it.

@Chickenyhead
A post puberty trans woman has absolutely no idea how it feels to be a woman in a society filled with violence committed by much stronger penis havers. None.

That's simply not true.

Whatever.

Dilusions of equivalence.

'Trans people would be significantly more receptive to using "male" and "female" to denote biology (although it's still a bit more complex than that) if you weren't so insistent on making the social labels and identities of "man" and "women" contingent on being "male" or "female".

But since "woman = adult human female" became a rallying cry for your movement, any such compromise has since become an impossibility.'

Oh come on.

That's s reaction to the word woman being redefined.

You started it is not a convincing argument tbh.

Tell me about the activism to help trans people in countries like Afghanistan.

Tell me you're aok with eg vagina owners subject to rape as a weapon of war. If you aren't why not.

[quote CuriousPanda]@IsItAKindofDream
But, you are right, 85% or more of transwomen are autogynephiles - having a sexual fetish about seeing themselves as women.

And for as long as you argue this, you are simply enforcing rigid gender roles and attempting to push trans women back into the closet.

Most retain their penis.

And?[/quote]
So, if we say what many transwomen actually say about themselves - we are pushing them back into the closet? You are the one denying their lived reality. That makes you a transphobe.

The “most retain their penis” was for the lurkers, who think transwoman means a man who has had his removed. That will influence what is in their mind when they answer the question about the 9-year old niece in the toilet - that you haven’t answered yet.

@IsItAKindofDream
You are the one denying their lived reality. That makes you a transphobe.

What?

You've been trying over and over to pull off a "no, you're the transphobe!" stunt, and not a single time did it make sense.

If lived experience is important than why are you denying the lived experience of female people when they say. Males are a group present a risk. And male sex offenders will go to great lengths to access places where women and girls are vulnerable and WILL exploit self id

...?

@NiceGerbil
Tell me about the activism to help trans people in countries like Afghanistan.

Tell me about your activism to help women in countries like Afghanistan.

Because it seems to me like your "feminist activism" is just using anything you can as ammo to attack trans people with, and absolutely nothing else.

@NiceGerbil
Tell me you're aok with eg vagina owners subject to rape as a weapon of war. If you aren't why not.

What the hell would I be...? What kind of insane question is that?

Ah no.

I asked you a fair and important question.

Which you have not answered and instead tried to deflect.

'
@NiceGerbil
Tell me you're aok with eg vagina owners subject to rape as a weapon of war. If you aren't why not.

What the hell would I be...? What kind of insane question is that?'

That's not an answer.

How would you word that headline?

@NiceGerbil

If lived experience is important than why are you denying the lived experience of female people when they say. Males are a group present a risk. And male sex offenders will go to great lengths to access places where women and girls are vulnerable and WILL exploit self id

...?

I could answer that, but you'd just scoff at the answer lol.

But if males will go to "great lengths" doesn't it mean they don't even need self ID, and will simply barge into these places even without self ID in place?

It's not as though they'll just go "oop, no self ID, no way to access this place"

It sounds to me like your solution will simply harm innocent trans women for no real benefit of anyone.

Ah the old you'll be raped anyway answer.

In the old days we could get a bouncer, tell security. Challenge them.

Now we have to assume they are fine. But it's ok, we can report them after they have hurt someone.

Awesome.

[quote CuriousPanda]@IsItAKindofDream
You are the one denying their lived reality. That makes you a transphobe.

What?

You've been trying over and over to pull off a "no, you're the transphobe!" stunt, and not a single time did it make sense.[/quote]
It won’t make sense to you, unless you stop and think about what you are saying.

There was a great post on Mumsnet saying woman is not a “psyche” that men can claim to have. I can’t find the thread, but you probably read it - based on a twitter posting by Vulvamort.

Men are culturally appropriating women’s lived experiences.

The same way Rachel Dolezal culturally appropriated the lived experience of black people.