Is being trans a choice?

[user888]

Spotted in Does anyone ever wonder how this will end? Thought it might be worth its own thread. Maybe not. We'll see.

Imagine how women by sex feel, having no protection anywhere from penis people. Not in rape crisis centres, refuges, prisons. Nowhere.

Transwomen and women by sex (a protected characteristic) are equal, but entirely separate.

Separate safe spaces for both is the solution.

While we are busy imagining Panda, imagine there having been no gender identity for 30 years of your life as a woman by sex.

Imagine that a group of penis owners decided to absolutely twist all applicable vocabulary that has applied to you for your entire life. That you have been educated to degree level about the physiology of the sexes. Yet now XY individuals are telling you that you are just a type of woman and they have the same rights as you. No.

Imagine the history of women by sex, being second class citizens throughout, fighting for every single right, yet still not considered equal by men. Imagine all of that hard won equality being brushed aside by penis owners who cannot tell the difference between the sexes.

Imagine being a lesbian and having fought to be considered a valid member of society, only now to be told that you are a bigot because you don't want penis.

You need to do the imagining, not us.

I find these threads really hard to read and understand. I can't grasp the 2 very different viewpoints. I keep trying, read the Maya case threads. I just don't get how anyone can argue that sex is not biological, male v female.

And that being trans doesn't necessarily make you a woman. It seems a sad journey. You want something you can't have. Even after surgery, you still aren't what you want to be. Because you want the impossible. I can't suddenly become black. I just can't.

I'm starting to think most of it is just MH conditions, body dysmorphia etc that they hope will be resolved by the trans route, but few are. I'm sure a few are, but most aren't.

This has become more prominent in my RL because my close friend her ds announced he was trans last week. I'm so sad.

Hey, I am not even British, so correct me if I'm wrong, ladies, but I'm pretty sure that there are very few residents of the UK who give a flying fuck about the Christian Right, never mind following their marching orders, and yet somehow, it is known as "Terf Island." It seems to me that British women are somehow capable of independent thought, mad though it seems. And so are women in a lot of other countries.

Definitely no Christian right here.

Atheist left.

Trans women forced to live as "men"

I know it has been asked a gazillion times on here, but I’ve never seen it answered, but what does “living as a man” or “living as a woman” actually mean? I can only see it meaning stereotypes.

CuriousPanda can you explain how it isn’t that?

'Gee, imagine how trans people feel. Trans women forced to live as "men" which to them, that's the fiction they're being forced to play along with.'

Gee imagine noticing the way you are treated because of you sex for as long as you can remember. And not understanding why, and finding it confusing and really hating it.

Imagine thinking that everyone should be treated as a person with no assumptions about interests, personality, abilities.

Feeling baffled and annoyed by being dressed up in uncomfy clothes, and that loads of people seemed to think that the thing to do was compliment your hair or clothes, I mean why is that important? Why don't you look at my space books, why are you surprised that I like them?

Imagine finding there was a word for you, feminist. And that was, to use current language, a core part of who you were, your identity.

And wanting to reduce the harm to female humans all over the world by getting rid of or at least reducing the damaging sex roles (gender) and knowing this would help male humans too.

I was forced to live in a confusing world where I was a person but everyone saw a girl/ woman and treated me as per social role.

I've never identified as girl/ woman. I am female and until very recently those words meant sex. Still do to 99.9 percent of the world (or the equivalent in other languages).

That makes me trans according to the definitions I've seen.

@NiceGerbil

I was forced to live in a confusing world where I was a person but everyone saw a girl/ woman and treated me as per social role.

I've never identified as girl/ woman. I am female and until very recently those words meant sex. Still do to 99.9 percent of the world (or the equivalent in other languages).

That makes me trans according to the definitions I've seen.

Me too.

That’s why being misgendered as “c*s” really offends me.

Me too.

Cis my arse.

And then this comes along and...

Sex is trivial
Internal gender is all that matters
Any discussion about our rights- the oppression because of our sex. Cannot mention women or girls.
We must be called menstruators, people with a womb etc. We must be referred to by the very organs that are the reason for our poor treatment.

If you disagree you are named cis, even if that is not something you identify as. While being told misgendering is terrible.

We are told that concerns about male people and what might happen are bigoted.
That males will attack and rape us anyway, so what's the problem.

And see are told that we can have no words to describe the billions of vagina people in the world as a group.

@IsItAKindofDream

Trans women forced to live as "men"

I know it has been asked a gazillion times on here, but I’ve never seen it answered, but what does “living as a man” or “living as a woman” actually mean? I can only see it meaning stereotypes.

CuriousPanda can you explain how it isn’t that?

It means persistently being referred to with masculine names, labels, pronouns, it means systemic pressure to dress, present, and refer to self in a masculine way.

That's what trans women have to go through before, and often after coming out, and that's where you're trying to push trans women back in.

Transwomen and women by sex (a protected characteristic) are entirely separate and equal.

Neither is more important and neither should encroach on the others safe spaces.

Separate safe spaces for each, with tailored services for their needs.

We are to ignore the reality of what being female means around the world.

And if it must be discussed then the rules mean. Things like.
Juvenile humans with vaginas usually leave education when they start menstruating.
People with vaginas subject to rape as a weapon of war in X.
School for children with ovaries bombed, 50 dead.

It is dehumanising in the extreme.

@NiceGerbil

And then this comes along and...

Sex is trivial
Internal gender is all that matters
Any discussion about our rights- the oppression because of our sex. Cannot mention women or girls.
We must be called menstruators, people with a womb etc. We must be referred to by the very organs that are the reason for our poor treatment.

Yep - and the “Be Kind” brigade don’t realise how unkind they are being to women, children, gay men, lesbians etc.

@Chickenyhead

I mean imagine being a woman by sex, raped and sexually abused all of your life, now being expected to share safe spaces with penis owners.

Horrifying.

When you're, for instance, using a bathroom, what genitals other people have in their pants is really none of your business.

@NiceGerbil

We are to ignore the reality of what being female means around the world.

And if it must be discussed then the rules mean. Things like.
Juvenile humans with vaginas usually leave education when they start menstruating.
People with vaginas subject to rape as a weapon of war in X.
School for children with ovaries bombed, 50 dead.

It is dehumanising in the extreme.

No one's actually stopping you from using "women" and "girls" in everyday language. Expressions like "people with ovaries" are only being used in strictly medical context. You're overreacting to a strawman you've constructed in your mind.

'It means persistently being referred to with masculine names, labels, pronouns, it means systemic pressure to dress, present, and refer to self in a masculine way.

That's what trans women have to go through before, and often after coming out, and that's where you're trying to push trans women back in.'

So where is the fight against countries where sex role is much more limiting?

Where a trans or non binary female has to cover entirely? And will be punished if she doesn't?
Where your sex role means forced marriage, rape. Where female people are the property of males?

How can it feel for a transman in those circs? I've not seen any from the major UK trans orgs. If anyone has info I'd be interested to see it.

Toilets? Oh. Is this about toilets?

It means persistently being referred to with masculine names, labels, pronouns, it means systemic pressure to dress, present, and refer to self in a masculine way.

Women have for years pushed back against having to dress, present etc in a stereotypically “feminine” way. Men need to push back against being stereotypically “masculine” - while staying as “men”. And men and women need to support them in that.

That's what trans women have to go through before, and often after coming out, and that's where you're trying to push trans women back in.

You are talking nonsense. I will support any man or women in pushing against stereotypes. You are the one trying to push people into repressive little boxes labelled “masculine” and “feminine”.

Do you mean men or transwomen daring to wear a dress?

Not clear what you mean.

@NiceGerbil
So where is the fight against countries where sex role is much more limiting?

This is a typical conservative talking point, a deflection historically used against feminists. "Where is feminism is Muslim countries?"

The fact is, we oppose restrictive gender roles there, too.