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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone ever wonder how this will end?

609 replies

dyslek · 12/07/2021 21:22

I can see three scenarios.

  1. women lose and we end up living in some nightmarish high tec version of ancient Rome, where woman and children is a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway a man wants at an given moment.
  2. the mass hysteria quietly dies down and every kind of pretents this was never a thing (and in fact it was only those nasty feminists making a fuss that caused all this misunderstanding in the first place).
  3. due to the sheer insanity of gender idology, society slowly starts to listen to women and the horror of the unfairness wakes everyone up to womans humanity and gender stereotypes and finally totally abandoned and we all live happly ever after.
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Doyoumind · 12/07/2021 23:17

Panda it's clear firstly that you are talking about the US. This is a UK site. Secondly, not believing in gender is definitely an aspect of many right wing views. That's not the same as being a radical feminist at all. You're on a feminism board here. They have a problem with gender in a different way to us. You are conflating two different things. If you paid attention that would be clear.

Helleofabore · 12/07/2021 23:17

Why on earth should we read anything that Montgomery says? They and another prominent trans activist mocked female’s toilet habits earlier this year. Had a wonderful laugh about how female’s go to the toilet and sounds etc.

And all this while constantly telling us they only want to pee, and being involved in sexually harassing a female on twitter.

dyslek · 12/07/2021 23:20

Panda already knows, Panda is not stupid.

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AfternoonToffee · 12/07/2021 23:21

That's a pretty far fetched list for the UK. Maybe they need to start doing something about those facing the death penalty elsewhere, instead of hand wringing that they have to wait for healthcare and don't immediately (or at all) get everything demanded.*

  • If anything that is equality to healthcare of women.
CuriousPanda · 12/07/2021 23:21

@Itreallytiedtheroomtogether
Ex gays? Do you really think that wiki link is saying that there are a group of people who were gay and just realised one day they weren't? Do you, really?
No, I'm saying that it was a cynical conservative operation, and that there's a pattern of those who claim to have desisted from a "deviant" lifestyle being weaponized against those who continue to be gay/trans.

@FloralBunting
Usually it's by not being a really horrible homophobe who thinks gay and lesbian people need to be physically altered into cosmetically resembling the opposite sex.
That's a dishonest strawman that's been wholly refuted by trans people constantly, but you never acknowledged that, and I don't expect you to acknowledge it now either.

dyslek · 12/07/2021 23:22

@Helleofabore

Why on earth should we read anything that Montgomery says? They and another prominent trans activist mocked female’s toilet habits earlier this year. Had a wonderful laugh about how female’s go to the toilet and sounds etc.

And all this while constantly telling us they only want to pee, and being involved in sexually harassing a female on twitter.

It will never cease to amaze me that someone is so desperate to be something they clearly hate so much. It one of the many mindblowing contradictions of the movement.
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dyslek · 12/07/2021 23:23

Yeah, theres also a history of people recovering from oppressive theological groups.

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dyslek · 12/07/2021 23:24

Nothing has been refuted, I think the word you are looking for is denied.

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CuriousPanda · 12/07/2021 23:25

@Doyoumind

Panda it's clear firstly that you are talking about the US. This is a UK site. Secondly, not believing in gender is definitely an aspect of many right wing views. That's not the same as being a radical feminist at all. You're on a feminism board here. They have a problem with gender in a different way to us. You are conflating two different things. If you paid attention that would be clear.
Transphobic media panic literally worse in the UK. At least in the US, liberal/left-wing politicians and media outlets are for the most part reliably supportive of trans people. In the UK, it's just a constant flood of anti-trans rhetoric.
CuriousPanda · 12/07/2021 23:27

@dyslek

Nothing has been refuted, I think the word you are looking for is denied.
No trans person believes cis gays and lesbians should be forced to transition. Trans people believe people should be free to transition regardless of sexual orientation.
Doyoumind · 12/07/2021 23:28

Ha ha. You have no idea what you are talking about. Can you name the UK media outlets concerned and tell me what you believe their politics to be?

dyslek · 12/07/2021 23:29

The US tho is much more right wing economically, almost religiously committed to individualism, and homophobic and misognyist culturally, and yet so agressively pro trans, funny that.

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OneEpisode · 12/07/2021 23:29

I just don’t get this. The UK, which offers free hormones and Surgeries, no co pays, no deductibles. And where the general public accepts trans people going about their lives.
And we are the country with the problem?

dyslek · 12/07/2021 23:29

Like Iran I guess.

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OvaHere · 12/07/2021 23:30

In the UK, it's just a constant flood of anti-trans rhetoric.

Most people would consider it a debate around clashing/competing rights. Which is how it should be in a decent functioning democracy.

I know it's inconvenient for some people that women have rights enshrined in law in this country.

Doyoumind · 12/07/2021 23:30

They've been fed so much propaganda they don't even question it.

dyslek · 12/07/2021 23:31

No not forced, just incouraged. When they're very young. And unsure of their place in the world.

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MiladyBerserko · 12/07/2021 23:32

I think it's going to get a lot worse before the public outcry and the litigation finally puts a stop to it. I reckon there will be more of the behaviour seen outside the WiSpa, more threats, and public 'terf' bashings. I dont think there is going to be a longterm widespread acceptance of males in changing rooms but there is no room for complacency in the meantime.

In another 5 years or so, the full horror of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones will have reached the compensation courts and the 'alliies'will be running for cover.

Blibbyblobby · 12/07/2021 23:33

[quote dyslek]@Blibbyblobby The problem is tho that most of this is driven by misogny so even if women re name themself so they can describe their oppression, men will still want to coopt whatever new identity woman create.
The hatered some men have for women drives them to litterly want to consume womenhood in the ultimate act of destruction/assimilation. That is the urge here and its not going to go away, even if women change thair name.[/quote]
Some men, sure. But not all of them, or even most of them.

Feminists originally articulated the difference between physical sex and socially imposed gender roles. It was a progressive insight that ones sex did not define anything about ones mental aptitudes and personality. This lead naturally to acceptance and welcoming of gender non-conformity by feminists.

Trans ideologues took this insight and distorted that to say that any acknowledgement of sex is regressive, allowing them to present the gendered personality as dominant.

At first glance this seems very similar to the Feminist perspective, and that has been the trap that allowed this regressive and anti-female movement to seem like a progressive one. But I believe most people, including the men, who support it do not do so out of misogyny but because they followed their first instinct to Be Kind and have not yet seen the regressive, sexist beliefs and contradictions at the heart of the ideology.

The hatred for and misrepresntation of so-called TERFs that flows from the ideologues is not, in fact, much to do with any fear of TERFs themselves. If it was real risk they cared about they'd be focussing on violent and toxic men, not a bunch of women with ribbons and stickers.

The focus on TERFs is simply the age-old tactic in religious social control of dissuading followers from certain dangerous thoughts by making an out group of the people who think them: "heretic", "blasphemer", "infidel", TERF". In this case, demonising TERFs prevents those well-meaning but superficial followers from even thinking about the implications of gender ideology for female people because once TERF thoughts are established as beyond the pale they will self-censor anything that seems a bit TERF-ish.

But that insight that sex and gender are different still lies under the distortion, and I think that is the key to moving past this. It is not the same as "just finding a new word/identity for women", it's more like just keep bringing the conversation back to the difference between sex and gender.

Itreallytiedtheroomtogether · 12/07/2021 23:34

[quote CuriousPanda]@Itreallytiedtheroomtogether
Ex gays? Do you really think that wiki link is saying that there are a group of people who were gay and just realised one day they weren't? Do you, really?
No, I'm saying that it was a cynical conservative operation, and that there's a pattern of those who claim to have desisted from a "deviant" lifestyle being weaponized against those who continue to be gay/trans.

@FloralBunting
Usually it's by not being a really horrible homophobe who thinks gay and lesbian people need to be physically altered into cosmetically resembling the opposite sex.
That's a dishonest strawman that's been wholly refuted by trans people constantly, but you never acknowledged that, and I don't expect you to acknowledge it now either.[/quote]
Is there any evidence of this Conservative conversion cult? There was plenty of evidence of religious gay conversion. The problem is actually the reserve - disproportionate numbers of young girls are identifying IN to trans identities. Hence detransitioning.

And on your later point - why is any of this anti-trans? Where is your discussion on how this effects women and girls - we exist too and have equal rights to trans people.

CuriousPanda · 12/07/2021 23:35

@dyslek

No not forced, just incouraged. When they're very young. And unsure of their place in the world.
No one is basing gender identity on sexual orientation. Gender identity is based on persistent, explicitly stated desire to be another gender.
CuriousPanda · 12/07/2021 23:36

@Itreallytiedtheroomtogether
And on your later point - why is any of this anti-trans? Where is your discussion on how this effects women and girls - we exist too and have equal rights to trans people.
How does recognizing trans women as women infringe on non-trans women's rights?

Wearywithteens · 12/07/2021 23:36

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

Itreallytiedtheroomtogether · 12/07/2021 23:38

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dyslek · 12/07/2021 23:40

[quote CuriousPanda]@Itreallytiedtheroomtogether
And on your later point - why is any of this anti-trans? Where is your discussion on how this effects women and girls - we exist too and have equal rights to trans people.
How does recognizing trans women as women infringe on non-trans women's rights?[/quote]
being locked in a prison cell with a rapist

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