Does anyone ever wonder how this will end?

[dyslek]

I can see three scenarios.

1. women lose and we end up living in some nightmarish high tec version of ancient Rome, where woman and children is a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway a man wants at an given moment.
2. the mass hysteria quietly dies down and every kind of pretents this was never a thing (and in fact it was only those nasty feminists making a fuss that caused all this misunderstanding in the first place).
3. due to the sheer insanity of gender idology, society slowly starts to listen to women and the horror of the unfairness wakes everyone up to womans humanity and gender stereotypes and finally totally abandoned and we all live happly ever after.

@Blibbyblobby The problem is tho that most of this is driven by misogny so even if women re name themself so they can describe their oppression, men will still want to coopt whatever new identity woman create.
The hatered some men have for women drives them to litterly want to consume womenhood in the ultimate act of destruction/assimilation. That is the urge here and its not going to go away, even if women change thair name.

I hope for sanity and a return to the decent trajectory of genuine equality we had been on.

What I think is more likely is Q-slur genderists will push and push and push until the backlash has serious consequences. Homophobia is already blooming again, I'm beginning to take more precautions when I'm out.

I expect to be subjected to more gut swooping examples of casual misogyny, racism and homophobia by transactivists, and I think that as we make a few good steps to deal with institutional capture the movement will seed itself more firmly in softer spots, like churches.

But it was ever thus. For women, we're never 'there', and predators will always seek victims, which is why safeguarding matters.

Simple, can a trans woman simply live her life as a woman without facing harassment and abuse, being villified as "fetishistic perverted degenerate" and without her existence becoming the subject of a moral panic?

Anyone should be able to live their life without harassment and abuse. But there should always, always be questions asked when someone wants to change the law and break down boundaries that are in place to protect women and children.

@BlueberryCheezecake

4) Trans acceptance becomes the norm without any catastrophic consequences and the people who opposed it will be looked back on with the same distaste as those who opposed gay marriage equality and supported Section 28.

This!!

I'm not sure if you've noticed, Panda, but that's an almost exclusively USAian, evangelical thing, and the list of people who no longer support the movement is longer than those that do. Also, two of the five named supporters are deceased.
This is a religious-based movement.

I don't think detransitioners are like that at all.

Yes, I also think there is a strong possiblity whatever happens, women wont get their rights back.

I wish some of you cheerleaders would do some reading, and some thinking.

Simple, can a trans woman simply live her life as a woman without facing harassment and abuse, being villified as "fetishistic perverted degenerate" and without her existence becoming the subject of a moral panic?

I don't know where you live or what sort of people you mix with, but I don't know anyone who uses language like that.

Trans people are protected under the law from harassment and abuse, just the same as anyone else. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it can be reported to the police. They actually have more protection than women in that respect, since misogyny doesn't come under hate crime legislation.

A transwoman can't live exactly as a woman because a transwoman is male (by definition). If they were treated exactly the same as a woman they would have less protection under the law as I've just explained. Is that what they want?

No, there aren't 'ex gays'. There are bisexuals who have settled into heterosexual marriages, repressed and often abused homosexuals either faking it in straight marriages or forcing themselves to be lifelong celibates, or transmen who are now miraculously straight men.

So, no examples of rights trans people don't have, huh, @CuriousPanda ? Colour me shocked!

Still reading if you do have any. Spare me the rhetoric, please.

[quote CuriousPanda]**@dyslek
What stops trans people living as equals with everyone else?
How specifically are trans people not living as equals with other people?
Simple, can a trans woman simply live her life as a woman without facing harassment and abuse, being villified as "fetishistic perverted degenerate" and without her existence becoming the subject of a moral panic?

@dyslek
also, what the hell are ex gays? coz thats totally a thing
Already linked it once
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-gay_movement[/quote]
'Simple, can a trans woman simply live her life as a woman without facing harassment and abuse, being villified as "fetishistic perverted degenerate" and without her existence becoming the subject of a moral panic?'
The harrassment and abuse part you need to take that up with men, also what is living as a woman?
The issue of being tarnished as perverted you need to start campaigning against self id then as it links trans people with sex offenders.

@Innocenta

So, no examples of rights trans people don't have, huh, *@CuriousPanda* ? Colour me shocked!

Still reading if you do have any. Spare me the rhetoric, please.

katymontgomerie.medium.com/what-rights-dont-trans-people-have-228c728f564a

I also don't recognise the kind of language Panda describes. This isn't about viewing trans people as degenerate at all.

We just put females first and don't want to lose our rights to those pushing agendas that impact on us as a sex.

Some people try really hard to create some kind of association between right wing evangelicals and feminists, but have you actually thought about what a stupid and ridiculous assertion that is? It's a smear campaign to scare people off and diminish our voice.

@FloralBunting

No, there aren't 'ex gays'. There are bisexuals who have settled into heterosexual marriages, repressed and often abused homosexuals either faking it in straight marriages or forcing themselves to be lifelong celibates, or transmen who are now miraculously straight men.

And what's stops one from saying the same about detransitioners? That many of them are just trans people who opted to repress, fall back on the "accepted" identity due to abuse and lack of acceptance?

We’ve had that Katie link before. It’s nonsense isn’t it? For example, no right to marry in one sex and then get the marriage backdated to reflect a new gender without consent of the spouse?

@Doyoumind

I also don't recognise the kind of language Panda describes. This isn't about viewing trans people as degenerate at all.

We just put females first and don't want to lose our rights to those pushing agendas that impact on us as a sex.

Some people try really hard to create some kind of association between right wing evangelicals and feminists, but have you actually thought about what a stupid and ridiculous assertion that is? It's a smear campaign to scare people off and diminish our voice.

You don't have to try very hard at all, I see GC people published on The Federalist, I see people on Ovarit share transphobic 4chan memes, Babylon Bee articles, Tucker Carlson clips.

It's not a ridiculous assertion at all.

The source you cite is not compelling, nor even accurate re: the UK (which is what I was asking about).

To the person who reckons those fighting to retain women’s rights for females when needed, not just safe spaces but also sports, career and education opportunities including positions needed for females to ensure policies work for females and so much more, will just ‘die out’ is so, so wrong.

As young females start realizing they have been sold a dud, they change their minds. They already are. Only a foolish person refuses to believe it.

The young lesbians fighting back. The women who finally understand that the women’s officer role going to a recently transitioned male means that females are not that person’s focus (this has already opened many young women’s eyes).

The young women who will realise that they are still experiencing sex discrimination and have done since birth, yet those transitioned males will still have had better opportunities than they had. And their transmen friends from school are also still experiencing discrimination because of their sex.

The growth of the group of young women who will miss out on their chance to play at professional level sports and transmen will realise they have no chance to compete with the men.

No. I think you are going to be mistaken there. Young females will certainly be joining in, just like many of us did when we realized how sexist discrimination was still so prevalent after all.

(That was for @CuriousPanda )

"No practical access to trans healthcare" is not an equality issue. Trans people have equal access to healthcare under the NHS. They don't have the preferential access that many want - but preferential treatment is not a human right.

The word woman will be eroded, then a group will want to erode the word female. A vocal minority will 'feel' female, will have feelings of monthly cycles etc. All the time they will look for ways to control women & be better versions of women. Eventually they will correct what feminism means as they will truly understand it in the way we obviously cannot.

Ex gays? Do you really think that wiki link is saying that there are a group of people who were gay and just realised one day they weren't? Do you, really?

And what's stops one from saying the same about detransitioners? That many of them are just trans people who opted to repress, fall back on the "accepted" identity due to abuse and lack of acceptance?

Usually it's by not being a really horrible homophobe who thinks gay and lesbian people need to be physically altered into cosmetically resembling the opposite sex.

I urge everyone to do it. You'll sleep much better at night knowing you didn't contribute to a generation of young people being sterilized because they liked the 'wrong' toys or clothes, or even their own sex.

But you know, stick with the homophobia if it's fashionable, I guess.

Night all!

In short, that biased source only ratifies my prior impression that trans rights in the UK are in a very healthy condition (perhaps, indeed, flourishing a bit too much at the expense of others).

That's not to say I think trans people shouldn't enjoy 100% equality when it comes to core human rights. Freedom to express gender as desired, to live free from attack and molestation, to use the name of one's choosing - etc. I, like many others, support this fully. But egregiously manipulating what 'rights' means is just incredibly unhelpful, and even harmful.