Question re relationships with trans people

[2021ismyyear]

Twitter is full of people that are prepared to defend trans rights at any cost. I’ve seen some hideous things written about people that believe otherwise. The insults against jk Rowling were hard to read. We saw it the other day when maya won her appeal case. People over ran social media with insults against “TERFS” etc.

I assume these people would have zero issue dating a trans person in that case? If trans women are women and sex doesn’t matter and it’s widely accepted that you can switch gender, then will those people start dating trans people? Will we see more women dating trans men for example? Will tinder do away with any search filters?

If not… why?

@ProudExclu

Lol everyone I’ve met who claims they would shag a trans woman mean a totally physically passing one tat looks sounds and comes across female but with a penis. So 1% of them.

They don’t mean your average trans woman. They look like men.

Your ignorance is amazing !

Stonewall states clearly that homosexuality means being attracted to someone who presents in a feminine/ masculine way.

Not that it's same sex attraction.

Examples were asked for I assume stonewall is an ok source?

What do posters make of their approach?

ImASoulMan

When gender expression is not linked to gender ID,

Your idea that trans men/ women should present as their internal gender is way out of date.

@NiceGerbil

Stonewall states clearly that homosexuality means being attracted to someone who presents in a feminine/ masculine way.

Not that it's same sex attraction.

Examples were asked for I assume stonewall is an ok source?

What do posters make of their approach?

As usual Stonewall are talking cobblers!

If you are a gay man you like men not women it's pretty simple.

I present in a feminine way but am still attracted to women, that doesn't make me a lesbian !

Stonewall are nuts !

@NiceGerbil

ImASoulMan

When gender expression is not linked to gender ID,

Your idea that trans men/ women should present as their internal gender is way out of date.

That's a fair point.

But it depends on your definition of trans of course and how big you belive the trans umbrella is.

It's insulting to suggest that 99% of transwomen look like men.
The ones who pass never get noticed so it's pure ignorance.

@Regularsizedrudy

I don’t have Twitter so maybe I have not seen the extremes on there, I am certainly not sending death threats to jkr. I’m sure there are “trans allies” who are disingenuous and just want to seem “right on” or whatever. But I also think they’re are a lot of people like me who think trans people face a lot of discrimination.

A very brief skim of this will give you an idea.

terfisaslur.com/

ImASoulMan

Stonewall is THE go to charity for LGBT+ things though- what they say carries a LOT of weight.

Also none of this is about individuals.

I'm sure you know how wide the umbrella is now and that self ID is pretty much expected. So much operates on this basis now- non trivial stuff like the police.

I am perfectly happy for people to present how they wish and am absolutely in favour of stamping out bullying violence abuse. This includes the stuff that GNC people get. It's important to fight abuse.

I know you know that the issue is with the insistence that any and all previously female only things be changed to gender and self ID. And the (to most people in the general public esp women) really obvious opportunity this gives to weirdy pervy men of which there are a huge number.

Being told that you're essentially the same as the most violent murderous awful people and groups for raising these concerns and saying... Hold on a minute. Has led to this polarisation. And at risk of sounding like a kid. We didn't start it!

'It's insulting to suggest that 99% of transwomen look like men.
The ones who pass never get noticed so it's pure ignorance.'

Again you're taking this personally.

Self id with no change to appearance is where we're at.
Very very very few want or can afford to have the many surgeries etc. I mean the list is huge (not everyone would want all but)...

Genital surgery
Electrolysis beard and possibly back and other areas
Voice training (or time to really practice)
Learning socialised things like how most women sit, how you struggle out of a car with a short skirt and heels
How to react in the way most women and girls act to loads of challenging situations at work, out and about etc. How most women react to men trying to put them in their place and how to manage it, if you wish, in a way that doesn't overly impact your reputation etc
Surgery Adams apple/ face/ boobs
What clothes and makeup to wear to blend in for your age appearance and the various unwritten rules for so much stuff

I mean you've done all this you know it!

And even then things like height, body shape/ how you carry yourself/ distribution of fat, hands, feet etc etc unless you're lucky enough to be very slight etc will be subconsciously noticed

And that's before you get onto the fact that no changes are required at all it's on self ID.

There are no stats of course and it would be really horrible to try and get them! And it's all subjective anyway. Based on posts on here as well it seems women notice the whole person rather than superficial outward appearance.

In the end the new gender crowd have really fucked things up for transsexuals and plenty are angry. Trus*um they are called by the more mainstream trans activists. Nice.

Lots of trans women look like stereotypical women and if they have fully transitioned they will have breasts and vagina so surely it makes sense for these people to go to a women’s refuge?

Extremely rarely in my experience (passing), and only a tiny, tiny percentage have surgery, especially bottom surgery (not that I blame them, the problems and failure rates are horrific, even worse for phalloplasty).

I mean yes those who pass won't be noticed!

Given the number of transwomen I have seen out and about that would mean an awful lot of transwomen who do around the place. And I just don't see how many can be lucky enough to naturally have a set of physical characteristics that are not unusual in women. One or two maybe but the whole lot?

@BlueberryCheezecake

OP, you seem to be talking about a very large and diverse group of people, basically anyone who's ever stood up for trans rights on social media. Of course some of them would date trans people, or are dating one, or have dated one. Equally, some of them might not, for various reasons. Some of them might be unavailable for dating, in which case the question is irrelevant. It's really honestly strange you think there's going to be a single yes or no answer to your question. And even stranger you seem pretty convinced the answer is no, when it's actually highly likely that some people who have trans partners would also be people who'd be prepared to speak up about trans rights on twitter. And it's even stranger you seem to think a person can only care about equality for a minority group if they're sexually attracted to that minority group.

Exactly this really.

But again this isn't personal.

Women and transwomen in general got on with things before all this. Women overlooked the small number of transwomen they came across in bogs, changing rooms with cubicles etc.

IME it was not that often and they were very much head down please don't say anything. And most of the time women didn't. We were 'kind'.

This you can be male with obvious masculine body grooming attire and no physical changes. And use the female facilities if you 'feel more comfortable' in. And that's your right and anyone in there who even says anything is a hateful person who wants trans people dead...

It's silly. Everyone knows it's silly.

And yet it's in place pretty much.. everywhere. Including places where we are really very vulnerable indeed.

And in the end who actually are the group to be really awful/ violent. That would be bog standard men. And as ever. What they do is someone else's fault. Just. Because.

The thing I find fascinating is the way the 'no such thing as society' and focus on the individual ( right wing ideas) have become the norm for so many issues.

With political movements etc it used to be about groups.

Now for many it's a view around individuals.

Stuff like

Male violence is a massive issue globally

• What? My DH is lovely. You're being insulting/ sexist/ mean

In many countries there is a terrible history of atrocities committed against black people / indigenous people / ... which were committed by X country

• I'm not racist! It was years ago. Why are you holding me responsible? That's just really unfair and wrong

In this conversation

There are serious concerns about dodgy men exploitating self ID
-My trans friend is lovely! Wouldn't hurt a fly. Why are you demonising her?

Etc etc.

It's not personal.

It's come from the fact, previously accepted and still accepted by loads of charities etc. That as a group, male people present a risk to female people. (And male people as well).

Anyone who insists that this is not true is someone who is a. Dishonest and b. Has no care for women and girls.

@2021ismyyear

Twitter is full of people that are prepared to defend trans rights at any cost. I’ve seen some hideous things written about people that believe otherwise. The insults against jk Rowling were hard to read. We saw it the other day when maya won her appeal case. People over ran social media with insults against “TERFS” etc.

I assume these people would have zero issue dating a trans person in that case? If trans women are women and sex doesn’t matter and it’s widely accepted that you can switch gender, then will those people start dating trans people? Will we see more women dating trans men for example? Will tinder do away with any search filters?

If not… why?

Some trans allies do date trans people. And dating any specific trans person isn't an obligation on anyone's part. You're free to only date whoever you personally find attractive. The important part is to not explicitly exclude any and all trans people.

Same way no one will force you to personally date a black person, but you still shouldn't put "no blacks" on your dating profile.

'The important part is to not explicitly exclude any and all trans people.'

Gay men/ lesbians. Should not explicitly exclude opposite sex trans people.

That's akin to racism.

To those on the thread who hadnt heard this pov then there you go. Very clear.

For those same people, interested for you to consider what that has meant for lesbian things. Bars, dating apps, etc etc.

Also anyone want to answer my gay clubs question earlier?

Including curious panda- interested in your view. Can repost my question here to save you scrolling if you like?

Oh God. Not equating being trans to being black again. Offensive and a scraping the barrel argument. It's always the same.

@Doyoumind

Oh God. Not equating being trans to being black again. Offensive and a scraping the barrel argument. It's always the same.

I genuinely don't care how you feel about it, I'm telling you how trans people feel about it. Being explicitly excluded, to trans people, is just as insulting and denigrating, and will react to that accordingly by decrying disclaimers about "not dating trans people" as transphobic.

Do with that information whatever you will.

@Imasoulman

If they are fully transitioned why would it be an issue, love shouldn't be that shallow.

Is it shallow to be straight? Or gay? Is all sexual orientation shallow?

'Panda* you've made it clear that having a defined sexual orientation that you don't want to deviate from is an issue. We're all rejected at one time or another for being who we are. I'm afraid living as a woman means being judged by your appearance every day of your life. That we've reached 2021 and it's deemed progressive to state there's something wrong with being sexually attracted to the kinds of people we're sexually attracted to is astounding.

@NiceGerbil

'The important part is to not explicitly exclude any and all trans people.'

Gay men/ lesbians. Should not explicitly exclude opposite sex trans people.

That's akin to racism.

Is that a joke? I honestly don't know anymore. Being gay or lesbian means not being attracted sexually to the opposite sex On what planet is that akin to racism

@Doyoumind

'Panda* you've made it clear that having a defined sexual orientation that you don't want to deviate from is an issue. We're all rejected at one time or another for being who we are. I'm afraid living as a woman means being judged by your appearance every day of your life. That we've reached 2021 and it's deemed progressive to state there's something wrong with being sexually attracted to the kinds of people we're sexually attracted to is astounding.

Excluding trans people from an entire sexual orientation is transphobic, yes. You don't have to be attracted to any specific trans person, it's not "wrong" to be attracted to whoever you attracted to, but to say trans people don't belong in certain spaces at all is inherently discriminatory.

As a straight woman, the trans people I could be attracted to would be trans women.

What have spaces got to do with sexual orientation? I'm confused.

@Lifeinthelastlane

As a straight woman, the trans people I could be attracted to would be trans women.

What do you think is the basis for attraction; external physical appearance, or gametes and chromosomes?