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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Question re relationships with trans people

542 replies

2021ismyyear · 12/07/2021 19:04

Twitter is full of people that are prepared to defend trans rights at any cost. I’ve seen some hideous things written about people that believe otherwise. The insults against jk Rowling were hard to read. We saw it the other day when maya won her appeal case. People over ran social media with insults against “TERFS” etc.

I assume these people would have zero issue dating a trans person in that case? If trans women are women and sex doesn’t matter and it’s widely accepted that you can switch gender, then will those people start dating trans people? Will we see more women dating trans men for example? Will tinder do away with any search filters?

If not… why?

OP posts:
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334bu · 12/07/2021 23:51

Do with that information whatever you will.

It might make me think you are a homophobe who denies the existence of same sex attraction. However, I am sure that you were not trying to imply that homosexual people should include people of the opposite sex within their dating pool?

CuriousPanda · 12/07/2021 23:53

@334bu

*Do with that information whatever you will.*

It might make me think you are a homophobe who denies the existence of same sex attraction. However, I am sure that you were not trying to imply that homosexual people should include people of the opposite sex within their dating pool?

I don't think trans people are "people of the opposite sex". I do not give a damn about your transphobic definitions, and I am under no obligation to abide by them.
Lifeinthelastlane · 13/07/2021 00:02

If they are of the same sex what did they need to transition from?

ProudExclu · 13/07/2021 00:04

@Imasoulman it’s not ignorance. Have you seen the state of most of them? Are you seriously telling me you think your average TW looks anything like a woman? Have you got eyes? I worked with them. I lived with them. I was abused by them. I’ve plenty of experience with dozens of trans women and I know three that I’d consider good looking as a trans woman and one still needs to learn what size shoe they are.

334bu · 13/07/2021 00:06

I do not give a damn about your transphobic definitions, and I am under no obligation to abide by them.

Believe what you like but don't deny the existence of same sex attraction. Homosexual people have fought long and hard for the right to love others of the same sex and treating that as transphobic is beyond the pale.

CiaoForNiao · 13/07/2021 00:10

I know you can't extrapolate from one comment but...

I was discussing trans issues with my brother recently. He genuinely believes that if you've had "a sex change" you have literally changed sex. He also thinks all trans women have had surgery and are, therefore, women. He thinks we should be allowing them into women's spaces.
I asked him if he would sleep with/date one. Once he'd got his pea sized brain around the fact I meant hypothetically, as he's married, he said "ewww no. I'm not gay"
So TWANW thenHmm

And it's not transphobic to say I wouldn't date trans people. I like male presenting men. With dicks. So I wouldn't want to date a trans man. And I wouldn't be attracted to a trans woman.

CuriousPanda · 13/07/2021 00:11

@334bu

*I do not give a damn about your transphobic definitions, and I am under no obligation to abide by them.*

Believe what you like but don't deny the existence of same sex attraction. Homosexual people have fought long and hard for the right to love others of the same sex and treating that as transphobic is beyond the pale.

Gay people fought for the right to love people of the same gender, not for strictly defined "sex-based attraction" (which is a term that originated in conversion therapy language)
Mibbiesaye · 13/07/2021 00:13

That's quite the rewrite of history.

Lifeinthelastlane · 13/07/2021 00:16

No they really, really didn't. Gender my arse.

334bu · 13/07/2021 00:16

Gay people fought for the right to love people of the same gender, not for strictly defined "sex-based attraction" (which is a term that originated in conversion therapy language)

I really think you should reconsider this post.

CuriousPanda · 13/07/2021 00:17

@Mibbiesaye

That's quite the rewrite of history.
You have LGB Alliance claiming gay people were a peaceful movement (no riots whatsoever!) and didn't want changes in law or language lol.

You are the ones rewriting history.

Fieldofgreycorn · 13/07/2021 00:17

Why are there so few people that would be willing to sleep with a trans woman?

Probably because the fact that they ‘used to be men’ is a major turn off for many people? A fact that’s probably very painful for many trans women to come to terms with.

So what’s your point?

CuriousPanda · 13/07/2021 00:22

@Lifeinthelastlane

No they really, really didn't. Gender my arse.
To be more specific, it was about men being free to love men and women being free to love women without repression, shame, and stigma.

None of gay activism was based around any of the "Only Sex-Based XX Chromosome Large Gamete Adult Human Female!!" bullshit, that's the part you wrote into "same-sex attraction" after the fact.

rightplacerighttime · 13/07/2021 00:22

Dating is inherently discriminatory. Being trans doesn't give you a special pass. Nobody sensible gives a damn about rules made by would-be social engineers.

OldCrone · 13/07/2021 00:25

To be more specific, it was about men being free to love men and women being free to love women without repression, shame, and stigma.

Yes, and since men are male and women are female, it's about same-sex attraction.

CuriousPanda · 13/07/2021 00:25

@rightplacerighttime

Dating is inherently discriminatory. Being trans doesn't give you a special pass. Nobody sensible gives a damn about rules made by would-be social engineers.
Yeah, you're free to discriminate on individual basis, but you don't to exclude trans people from entire spaces.

Also, don't make any explicitly discriminatory preemptive proclamations lol, just turn down anyone you're not attracted to.

334bu · 13/07/2021 00:25

You have LGB Alliance claiming gay people were a peaceful movement (no riots whatsoever!) and didn't want changes in law or language lol.

How on earth did you reach that conclusion, of course they wanted laws changed, in Scotland it was still an illegal act to have gay sex in 1980. As for language , what language did they want to change?

CuriousPanda · 13/07/2021 00:25

@OldCrone

To be more specific, it was about men being free to love men and women being free to love women without repression, shame, and stigma.

Yes, and since men are male and women are female, it's about same-sex attraction.

That's your choice to define it that way. I'm under no obligation to use the same definition.
334bu · 13/07/2021 00:29

None of gay activism was based around any of the "Only Sex-Based XX Chromosome Large Gamete Adult Human Female!!" bullshit, that's the part you wrote into "same-sex attraction" after the fact.

Gay activism was all about same sex attraction. That's what being gay is all about and denying that is really homophobic.

NiceGerbil · 13/07/2021 00:29

'Being explicitly excluded, to trans people, is just as insulting and denigrating, and will react to that accordingly by decrying disclaimers about "not dating trans people" as transphobic.'

This is about sexual attraction. Sexuality.

Homosexuality has been in some countries and still is. Illegal. Socially so unacceptable that there are large numbers of beatings murders. Gang rape and murder of out lesbians. Some countries have death penalty.

Beyond that in countries which enforce narrow gender roles past the risk of being deemed homosexual, the freedom of especially female children and adults is highly policed. Arranged marriage, child marriage.

I may be making an assumption here but I'd imagine that in general in a forced marriage the girl/ woman. Well in theory her husband has marital rights and in practice i have no doubt that a gay man in this situation will have a shit life but pressure for intercourse a different dynamic. But a lesbian will be in no position to refuse. And frankly in that situation sexuality is by the bye because rape. Women and girls have way less freedom to get away by themselves/ meet other people etc etc. They are property.

For trans people in those countries where I doubt there are explicit laws, presenting or in any way being seen to be too feminine or masculine will be interpreted as homosexuality and same oppression applied.

On that note marital rape was only criminalised in England and Wales in the early 90s.

Your point is that in more liberal countries, asserting your sexuality and at times bluntly saying no is transphobic.

Given the history for lesbians, gay men and bisexual people who in any way gave away the same sex attraction part of their sexuality. In the UK. And still desperate all over the world.

And given that it was legal for a man to rape his wife until the early 90s- so recent. And that all over the world millions of women and girls have no choice about who or when they have sex (rape).

Given that where women have the legal right to say no and rape is illegal, and gay men and lesbians and bisexual people are protected in law, it has been FOUGHT FOR in living memory.

Given all that.

What gives you the idea that it's reasonable to compare exclusive same or opposite sex attraction as like RACISM...???

CuriousPanda · 13/07/2021 00:31

@334bu

*You have LGB Alliance claiming gay people were a peaceful movement (no riots whatsoever!) and didn't want changes in law or language lol.*

How on earth did you reach that conclusion, of course they wanted laws changed, in Scotland it was still an illegal act to have gay sex in 1980. As for language , what language did they want to change?

pbs.twimg.com/media/E5DB6AQXIAAMIYm.jpg

"We never demanded that society change its laws, its activities, its language to accommodate us."

Is a thing LGB Alliance said. Which is obviously ignorant ahistorical bullshit.

As for what language gay liberation movement sought to change...

For a long time marriage was defined as a union between man and woman. And we successfully phased out that bigoted definition.

CuriousPanda · 13/07/2021 00:33

@334bu

*None of gay activism was based around any of the "Only Sex-Based XX Chromosome Large Gamete Adult Human Female!!" bullshit, that's the part you wrote into "same-sex attraction" after the fact.*

Gay activism was all about same sex attraction. That's what being gay is all about and denying that is really homophobic.

No, it is not homophobic to not share your transphobic definitions, nor was it all about "same-sex attraction", it was all about loving people of the same gender. Smile
NiceGerbil · 13/07/2021 00:34

Sorry my post was long!

Loads of other posts while I was writing it.

Still curious I'd be interested in a response.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/07/2021 00:34

But lots of people ARE willing to date/marry trans people so I don’t understand your point?

Statistically, no. 9% of lesbians and around 2% of straight men, according to one recent pro trans study.

NiceGerbil · 13/07/2021 00:35

Did you read my post? Because the smiley face is bang out of order.

If you didn't please can you and then I'd be interested to hear what you make of it.