Question re relationships with trans people

[2021ismyyear]

Twitter is full of people that are prepared to defend trans rights at any cost. I’ve seen some hideous things written about people that believe otherwise. The insults against jk Rowling were hard to read. We saw it the other day when maya won her appeal case. People over ran social media with insults against “TERFS” etc.

I assume these people would have zero issue dating a trans person in that case? If trans women are women and sex doesn’t matter and it’s widely accepted that you can switch gender, then will those people start dating trans people? Will we see more women dating trans men for example? Will tinder do away with any search filters?

If not… why?

Loads of gay men are also very unhappy about this. FYI. They are becoming more vocal about homophobia and rightly so.

Surely the “trans” part of “trans woman” illustrates that. It would seem to me that you just want to stick the boot in by adding “male” in there

No just to clarify why they should not be in female refuges because they were,not female.

You’ve just made that number up though but even if it is correct I don’t think it proves anything in your favour though. I would date a trans man but I probably wouldn’t if they didn’t have a penis. That doesn’t mean I suddenly don’t care about the trans men that don’t have penises.

(Anyone can date who they wish - caveat)

That's the point people are trying to make though, if TMAM it doesn't matter if they have a penis or not, so if you are looking to date a man then a TM will fit this description whatever their surgical status. If you do refuse then you will be called a TERF quicker than you can say No.

(And it is very strange to think people only care about people they would sleep with)

@334bu

*Surely the “trans” part of “trans woman” illustrates that. It would seem to me that you just want to stick the boot in by adding “male” in there*

No just to clarify why they should not be in female refuges because they were,not female.

Where should they go then? I am genuinely asking!

@Regularsizedrudy

I don’t have Twitter so maybe I have not seen the extremes on there, I am certainly not sending death threats to jkr. I’m sure there are “trans allies” who are disingenuous and just want to seem “right on” or whatever. But I also think they’re are a lot of people like me who think trans people face a lot of discrimination.

You're being kind. And that's where almost all of us started. No one denies trans people face discrimination. But the fact they face discrimination is not a reason for women's hard won rights to be given away. It's not transphobic to centre females in feminism.

It's two different scenarios though, I mean I would stand up for gay rights because I believe in them but I wouldn't sleep with a man !
The same way people can stand up for trans people without wanting to sleep with them.

I'm not defending the key board warriors either, making death and rape threats is disgusting and cowardly.
I was simply making a point within a debate.

@AfternoonToffee

You’ve just made that number up though but even if it is correct I don’t think it proves anything in your favour though. I would date a trans man but I probably wouldn’t if they didn’t have a penis. That doesn’t mean I suddenly don’t care about the trans men that don’t have penises.

(Anyone can date who they wish - caveat)

That's the point people are trying to make though, if TMAM it doesn't matter if they have a penis or not, so if you are looking to date a man then a TM will fit this description whatever their surgical status. If you do refuse then you will be called a TERF quicker than you can say No.

(And it is very strange to think people only care about people they would sleep with)

Well I have expressed to trans people that I am attracted to people who look stereotypically male but if someone who looked like this had a vagina I would not want to date them because I am not interested in vaginas. No ones called me a terf yet.

Where should they go then? I am genuinely asking!
To any refuge which is not designated as female only.

None of the regular posters on this board want any trans people to face discrimination. The difficulty is that the idea of what that discrimination is varies wildly. One can support women's rights and also want trans people to have fair and full access to appropriate services.

Your point is valid OP the derailers are being deliberately obtuse

They never answer do they.

@Whinginadeville

Your point is valid OP the derailers are being deliberately obtuse

How very unexpected.

I haven't been around as much as usual the last month or so but it feels like a new wave of arrivals, maybe prompted by the board change.

For what it's worth, I've dated both trans men and trans women but am mildly creeped out that one should date anyone to make a political point.

I will say that my experience is that dating a trans woman is very unlike dating a man, and dating a trans man is very unlike dating a woman.

Actually, IMO, having a clear sense of who you want to shag probably is quite important. though the answers to this may be many and various. Doesnt mean you wouldnt want to support people that you dont want to shag though. Some of this thread is a bit strange.

Lol everyone I’ve met who claims they would shag a trans woman mean a totally physically passing one tat looks sounds and comes across female but with a penis. So 1% of them.

They don’t mean your average trans woman. They look like men.

I don't think it's that much of an issue in real life. Most of the trans people I know are in relationships. I can think of several trans people I know who I would happily date if I were single, as well as trans people who I have absolutely no romantic or sexual interest in, just like any other group of people.

If I were attracted to someone, it wouldn't put me off if they were trans.

I can see how if it's really important that your partner has a penis, or breasts, or a vagina, or a hairy chest, then you are likely to only want to be in a relationship with someone with those particular attributes. There's no rule that says you have to fancy trans people. But it does strike me as odd that someone with an existing attraction to a person would choose not to act on that attraction just because they found out the object of their affection was trans.

How, just generalising, do posters think that gay men feel. About femme presenting transmen in gay clubs?

Back in the day I went to a few- with lesbian friends who had their own space in the club.

Once memorably to trade! By accident! Can tell you how that happened if you like!

Anyway. IME the clubs I went to were a free or to use modern language 'safe' space. Where gay men could do their thing.

And their thing again IME in those clubs was dancing in various states of undress to really hardcore dance music with an overt sexually charged atmosphere and plenty of that atmos translating into clothes coming off and erm. Well you know I'm sure!

This is a subculture of course I am well aware that many gay men aren't into that side of things.

The fact is that parts of the gay scene have always been heavy on in your face male sexuality with other men.

I'd be interested in thoughts about female people, maybe femme presenting, in those places? Views on the impact on that scene of changing the club essentially from homosexual male people to entry on self ID?

When I was young, women were always trying to get into gay clubs as they were way less likely to get hassled and the DJs were awesome. Door policies were strict.

Interested in thoughts.

And if anyone else remembers trade!

I don’t think anyone has said that people should date to make a political point or that you shouldn’t support people you dont want to shag

I think dyslek has explained what the OP meant very well a number of times now

OP is making a good point about the material reality of sex ...

@mollythemeerkat

Actually, IMO, having a clear sense of who you want to shag probably is quite important. though the answers to this may be many and various. Doesnt mean you wouldnt want to support people that you dont want to shag though. Some of this thread is a bit strange.

That's not what it's about. OP is talking about people who claim TWAW or TMAM but wouldn't sleep with them as they don't actually have the genitals/body they find sexually attractive. Because when it comes to sex they know twanw and tmanm.

Agreed that dyslek made sense. And get the point the OP was making, hence my comment about most people being pretty clear about who they want to have sex with and most people knowing what sex other bodies are.

ImASoulMan thanks for the post.

The weirdest thing about all this is that women dismissed as 'te**s', homophobes, right wing etc

Are (or were before this conversation became more widely known) the sort of women who under different circs would have been a group who advocated for and supported trans people.

Old school feminists
Dyed in the wool lefties
Lesbians
Women who were activists around that for years
Socialists who were anti racism, concerned about poverty. Disability rights activists. global oppression of various groups.

All that sort of thing. The 'type' of woman much derided in the press and society.

Oh, and very often GNC in look and/ or personality.

I mean I could go on!

As a group are I'd imagine more likely to try to do something for a person they saw in trouble. Not less.

How has this idea that women of that type suddenly have become those that want others harmed?

I don't understand it.

@BlueberryCheezecake

Not sure what your point is? There's not going to be one single yes or no answer to cover this entire cohort of people. But people do date trans people and lots of trans people are in relationships, so if you're trying to suggest trans people are somehow fundamentally undateable you're very wrong.

Ultimately however, why does it matter? You shouldn't have to want to f*ck someone before you're prepared to defend their human rights. "You can only stand up for trans people if you personally would shag one" is a weird claim to make.

But we are constantly lectured about being transphobic if we refuse to consider dating them. So which is it to Be?

But it does strike me as odd that someone with an existing attraction to a person would choose not to act on that attraction just because they found out the object of their affection was trans.

It doesn't strike me as even slightly odd. As you get to know someone, absolutely anything about them could be something that puts you off of acting on that attraction. The fact that they think they're the sex they're not is a rather big thing.

I think this thread is getting bogged down!

Here's an example.

Stonewall definitions.

'Homosexual
This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.'

'Gender
Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth.'