Article about WiSpa incident *title edited by MNHQ*

[CoconutGlaze]

www.losangelesblade.com/2021/07/07/alleged-trans-incident-at-upscale-la-spa-may-have-been-staged/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&cf_chl_jschl_tk=5829536c8d2fa7597130f41074d1ff4ddc091aee-1625785481-0-AcMexoncOasqbydtxZLnvW3kf86pvnmRUcmnFRJO3kDQTTPi3WE1pqsYEciE_bUv0_NrLqCEBB07kbXA9xARnFe7KkItHOoJesYdjEC6fhZlzSdZR5jNea3Hx86Run4GtO5awEU3NnavY0JvTjYrnAVNCm8tEidf1SMMw3N5siRBk8qD1VNkFgE5cpMkcjvQeRQOADtTSBAxPmJBCYcnt9-8vGTpjCqttCRHPJpNcOTVZ1yeJUoMKwXTMHx6TYPRXfLtl9iMGeP4hL9uTYPEGTlrpO9oNuwAKavdw2-gxpOKI_xUiq2v9Du5DREcmzRyp0Hbw663FPxWtUH30wzqS_uBK7ghaCwgVJq80Jqm_6IrKuwhmZZ8v63Pz43HNOLM_Z_LDzQaSLaudEQf8hcoUFVdcbQMtr1ZG0MPaesDmdB4iEDbdrdpR_yjmAZ0Pv1v151venXcbcYpUYyEtdcU8_kRH-iv2XYtf7vdtY_vfuu3DyzzvhXUk31-zNSYJlPMkVbHzQkZkuQMw4yQy7XsOSaoMPKRTgsJORo6DtRdu5NMqMu8190zks0sRxJeosg8KWSjnO33FKQXycbDay-9eGQagXI2tsfaurfG3jb2p3SV-f8fzRSwfCOf8C9-TmWrow#Echobox=1625710145

Wow. That is a bingo card full.

Hmmm. Why would a female take footage of the person exposing themselves in the spa? Who is to say she hasn’t but won’t publish it because that would be illegal. After all, there are laws against publishing those sort of images.

And to repeat yet again, why would anyone release footage of a person who was supposedly legally accessing the space. The whole point is that the law is enabling this and it is wrong.

So, your whole suggestion about ‘outing’ the person is completely ridiculous and flawed. What reason would someone have to access CCTV footage for instance?

And finally, and again, the law is wrong. Yes, that male (who may or maybe trans) may be wrong, but the law allows this. That is what this whole debacle is about.

So let’s get back to the question. Is it acceptable for a naked male with a penis to get into the spa with a nine year old or a six year old girl?

That is all that needs to be discussed.

If it happened, the person should be dealt with by law enforcement.

Apparently, according to local laws, no law has been broken. Did you not see this video where the manager of the spa says that they can't discriminate against transgender people, so if a man says he's a woman they have to let him into the women's area?

www.instagram.com/tv/CQfqaRDnS36/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4283068-Wi-Spa-pt-2-talking-to-the-manager

If I'm GC, as much as I want to believe this happened I've still really got to be asking myself where is the 'trans genital waver'?

Presumably, still in the same place, waving their genitals. Many of the women and girls have left.

Beyond that, I've got to be asking if any other person present witnessed the same?

Plenty of other voices on the video I just posted the link to.

If a trans person has done wrong, let's identify them, as we would with any other criminal. If there is no evidence of wrong doing and even worse a suggestion of actions akin to McCarthyism let 's reflect on what has happened and if you are really willing to put your name to it?

As I've already said, according to local laws it seems they haven't done anything wrong. Local laws say a man is a woman if he says he is and he has a right to take his penis into a women only spa and wave it at young girls. That's where we are.

Beyond that, I've got to be asking if any other person present witnessed the same?

There were women in robes out in reception agreeing with her. Do you think women would be leaving the spa area in their robes to mill around reception normally? What the fuck for?

And why the fuck would any woman come out in support considering how this woman has been vilified. Who would ever want to attract the attention of ANTIFA?

Another woman HAS come forward and even here on MN people have completely discredited here because she expressed her motivation for being there poorly. Not that she wasn’t credible, just not articulate.

I think your post highlights some significant disparity in the reality females exist in vs being able to come up with reasons to discredit them. Have you thought how misogynistic it is to not believe a woman reporting something like this.

What about TWO women reporting this?

@Steph751

If it happened, the person should be dealt with by law enforcement. What I'm getting despite a bit of digging is an unsubstantiated allegation. There's a video which, surprisingly seems to concentrate on the staff and some other customers in the foyer but oddly if I have to be honest, not on the alleged offender. If I'm GC, as much as I want to believe this happened I've still really got to be asking myself where is the 'trans genital waver'?

Beyond that, I've got to be asking if any other person present witnessed the same? I'm also thinking that given a reasonable description that this person must show on entrance to the car park cctv? Car park cctv with would really help an index number that would link a car to an owner.

As a result of that I think I've seen a trans woman who verifiably wasn't there being subject to death threats. Further, there appears to have been a demnstration by right leaning men and women against the spa that has never hidden its acceptance of trans people. The result of the demo appears to be that a right leaning GC gentleman has used a knife to hurt someone in his own group and someone in the group holding a counter protest.

So, as far as I can see, a suspect should be very easy to identify. Cctv at the entrance and exit, a list of easy identifiable trans service users and a list of all others to enter On that day including the person who restocked the coffee machine. Yes/no?

Looking at the reporter, I'm observing connections to a right wing male who has form for false flag stuff in a religious setting and what I think (I may be wrong) is what appears to be a very well polished camera appearance.

Now, more than ever, we deserve to know the unvarnished truth about this episode. Two people have been stabbed by a GC leaning ideologue in the name of Gender Critical ideology at a subsequent protest.

If a trans person has done wrong, let's identify them, as we would with any other criminal. If there is no evidence of wrong doing and even worse a suggestion of actions akin to McCarthyism let 's reflect on what has happened and if you are really willing to put your name to it?

Good lord.

No crime was committed, so no CCTV can be requested.

Women in the foyer corroborated the story, as did the receptionist by saying it's perfectly legal. As does the testimony of another woman, in terms of supporting it, a few months prior.

Also, you might think it's perfectly acceptable to video people naked in a spa, but I can assure you it's not. Please don't suggest it.

And finally, antifa are there on the trans side. They support everything you say and do. You can keep them.

If I'm GC, as much as I want to believe this happened I've still really got to be asking myself where is the 'trans genital waver'?

If you were ‘GC’, you’d probably have applied some critical thinking to your entire post and realised where the flaws in your premise was.

And nice to continue to drop in ‘right wing’. Shall we start posting the quotes from transwomen who are obviously people you would align with? Shall we mention Foucault? Maybe the LGBT activist that goes into schools and yet has said in the past things in support of integenerational relationships. Or the trans influencers who mocked female toilet habits and noises around IWD.

Shall we point out who is aligned with those with the points of view supporting this persons access to the spa with naked children? Because this repetitive reference to who people who find this situation unacceptable being aligned with right wing is pretty funny considering who those advocating for it are aligned with.

Happy to post evidence of those associations anytime you wish.

How do people imagine an individual woman could capture the penis-flourishing on video if she is in a hot tub? Where would she be keeping her phone? It's almost certainly against the spas own rules to have a phone in there with you anyway (unlike, unfortunately, a penis) quite apart from any offence that might be committed in sharing such material.

But anything to discredit a woman's account of her own experience, eh?

The U.S. is not the U.K. They don't have CCTV. There is, amazingly, not quite as much video surveillance as in Britain. And yes, it is unlikely that ladies would be packing cellphones while naked in a hot tub. For some reason.

Nah. Nah. She’d get out of the spa and walk quickly to her locker and come back and ask the person to get out so she could take the footage to post online. And avoid getting any one else I the shot.. so many she’d ask everyone else to move away too so they were not in the shot.

That must be how people think it works.

I’d suggest they engage their own critical thinking rather than reading twitter as a source of ‘intelligence’ gathering. It is hardly intelligent to just regurgitate what the twitter idiots and biased media post without questioning it. But there you go, we have seen a lot of this in the past few days.

Notice I said she would walk, as it is a wet area and she would not want to run and slip.

Safety First Ladies.

Damn auto carrot.

That is. *And avoid getting any one else in the shot.. so maybe she’d…’

@Helleofabore

Notice I said she would walk, as it is a wet area and she would not want to run and slip.

Safety First Ladies.

Phew. I was worried there for a minute.

There's quite a bit to answer here so I'll try it bit by bit.

Of course it is not okay for anyone to waive their genitalia around infront of children. I'm surprised that people think pre-op trans women as a whole would want to expose the body they hate to others. I'm not saying there aren't had trans people but i 'd be astonished if we're a common trait.

The law is the law whether you agree or not. Sticking your genitals in someone's face in most jurisdictions is a serious offence. The plod are required to take it seriously and have a duty to find evidence. If someone is withholding said evidence I'm wondering why?

Old Crone - Even in California it is an offence to waive your genitals in front of children. Waiving genitals has been described, it's an offence. Again this should result in those morons that didn't listen at school who term themselves police getting their act together and looking into it. Yes/no?

Who has come forward? Surely they will be able to consistently describe someone who is seen in the entrance camera? That someone may tie in with a known trans client. We know this isn't a place that randoms can just wander into willy nilly, appointments are required. Yes/no?

So, who is to say she just hasn't published the footage yet? Really, worth saying twice, really? I'm normally willing to engage in many points but I find myself laughing this particular suggestion off given the circumstances.

There's no suggestion about outing anyone. A serious offence has been alledged, all footage, personal and business related needs to be seized at the earliest opportunity. CCTV is passive evidence, disputing it is very hard.

And, eventually, good Lord Datun, do you really expect me to believe someone connected to the religious right would enter a known trans friendly spa, see an obvious sexual offence take place and film everything but the offender? I've got to be really honest and say, I really do believe you think I was born yesterday.

As for Antifa being there at the subsequent protest, if you are seeking to minimize the actions of a right wing ideologue using GC ideology as a cover for his actions and a side to politics that you appear to have chosen to engage with to own trans people, I'm sad to say, you make me sick. You really do. Hate has no place here.
I
I'm still no wiser as to what really happened but my theory that the cops ain't the brightest hasn't lessened. My opinion that Datun would excuse right wing violence as long as it owned the trans is new but eh, we learn something every day.

It will never cease to amaze me how people can delude themselvs that no one can see dishonesty.
I always think it must be a fundermental assumption of superiority.

I'm surprised that people think pre-op trans women as a whole would want to expose the body they hate to others. I'm not saying there aren't had trans people but i 'd be astonished if we're a common trait.

Not quite sure what that second sentence means.

Regardless. Absolutely would accept that many transitioned people would not be seeking to be exposing themselves. But it is also ridiculous to deny that some do. They are exposing themselves on twitter, on onlyfans and pornhub. Some making female toilets their speciality.

And also, no one really established if this person really was trans, did they?

Who has come forward?

You really don’t expect anyone to come forward surely. The vitriol and worse that this woman has received has been appalling. I am very surprised people expect others to come forward.

It is apparently NOT A CRIME! It is impossible for the spa to tell who is or isn’t a woman and they cannot discriminate. Really, the number of times this has been yet, there is this insistence that she should file a report.

Surely they will be able to consistently describe someone who is seen in the entrance camera?

Again, why would any woman come forward to receive similar treatment.

That someone may tie in with a known trans client. who said it was a ‘known’ trans client and again, why would anyone come forward. I certainly doubt the person with the semi erect penis would come forward either.

We know this isn't a place that randoms can just wander into willy nilly, appointments are required. Yes/no? Do you know this? You have been to the exact spa? It wasn’t a treatment, it was a spa that it seems anyone could enter.

This seems like the same disinformation we have seen from others previously.

Steph, you appear to be still suggesting that the woman should have gone back into the spa area with a mobile phone to film the individual concerned, instead of taking it up with management.

I'm boggling!

So, who is to say she just hasn't published the footage yet? Really, worth saying twice, really? I'm normally willing to engage in many points but I find myself laughing this particular suggestion off given the circumstances.

Laugh away. Why would she would release footage of the actual person, even if she had it, and she probably doesn’t? But it would be illegal. We have been clear that under the Californian law, that person seems to have been there legally. So, how and why would any footage, from wherever it has been taken, even CCTV, be legal to be released or even obtained.

So, laugh away. It actually shows more about you and how you would choose to act than anything else.

As far as I can see Helleofabore, very little has been established as fact. This does surprise me that given the yanks propensity for shooting each other and the subsequent mass surveillance that this brings that the police have not been either able to support or cast doubt on the version of events playing out in the generally trans hostile media.

I agree with your comment about the modesty of trans people. I medically transitioned 22 years ago. Neither since or before have I ever wanted anyone to see my genitals in a changing room etc... I'm really convinced that I'm not unusual in feeling like that. At the same time, I'm willing to admit that there are bad trans people. Treating the whole demographic based on their behaviour, just in case, really is heading for 1930's Nazi trains of thought.

I'm not here to convince people, most I see here are too far down the GC rabbit hole. I can only ask questions in the hope that passers by ask them too.

do you really expect me to believe someone connected to the religious right would enter a known trans friendly spa

You are implying she has done this deliberately. You certainly aren’t the first to do this here.

This is also known as a ‘family’ spa. People are taking their girls there. From other reports, they take their Grandmas there.

This rhetoric that it was a ‘known’ LGBT hotspot as someone called it the other day seems rather incongruous to people taking their children and parents to. So, perhaps it is just more hyperbole or at the minimum, over egging it.

Maybe you need to start providing some evidence to support this. Maybe the wispa website. Because it seems to have been taken down. But I know you would be able to find some archived evidence stating it was a LGBT hotspot and that parents should be warned not to expect their daughters and mothers to have privacy away from males and be warned that there might be naked penises.

The allegation is that someone with penis and testicles was displaying penis and testicles. Not that they were trans.

A patronising young man lectured the lady filming and told her that the penis owner might be transgender. So he speculated on the individual's gender identity and assigned the individual to the trans community.

However, in the video, I developed the impression that the lady there thinks penis and testicles person isn't trans, because they are displaying their genitalia.

So clearly the man with the beard is transphobic, as he brought trans issues into it all. Agreed?

P.s.Helleofabore, Do you honestly believe a person who is legally in a space that waves their genitalia in front of children is protected to the extent that their privacy overrides any potential investigation of a criminal offence? I really thought you had a point initially but that is just some bad faith nonsense. The sad thing is, as a result of that bad faith nonsense, two people have been stabbed and one had a gun pulled on them. Is that really where we are at? There isn't enough space to shake my head. Take care, I've lost hope.

At the same time, I'm willing to admit that there are bad trans people. Treating the whole demographic based on their behaviour, just in case, really is heading for 1930's Nazi trains of thought.

Sure. But you know that safeguarding means you have to protect against the worst offenders. Until there is a way to do this, it should mean providing both a mixed sex and a female single sex provision.

I agree. I think there are many trans people who have no intention to harm others. We also know there are some who absolutely acknowledge that women who cannot be in vulnerable situations with males should also be respected and alternative solutions found.

I'm not here to convince people, most I see here are too far down the GC rabbit hole. I can only ask questions in the hope that passers by ask them too.

By all means ask questions. But don’t ask them as if they are a ‘gotcha’, it might just backfire..

We have heard most of it before, this is about the fourth thread on this topic. And it was posted by someone who simply wanted to stir up the women on FWR if we are reading the MNHQ post properly.

Steph, do you really, really, really think that a black woman in the US of A would be wise to walk back into a spa and film someone nude in a place where cameras are forbidden, thus committing a criminal offence herself?

Chances are the penis-bearer is just a common-or-garden pervert taking advantage of the the 'cloak of untouchability', Open Sesame legislation which enables him to access all areas if he claims to be trans. But you know this, Steph. And you are being disingenuous to harp on treatment of the 'trans demographic ' (with the now almost obligatory, tedious and downright offensive Nazi comparisons) when what women are objecting to is men - any men - being able to enter what should be SEX-segregated spaces.