Prisons Judicial Review: Judgement

[KeepPrisonsSingleSex]

It's finally here...
The judgement in the prisons judicial review R (FDJ) v SSJ
will be handed down by email at 10.30 am today...

Here is a reminder of what it was about:

www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/judicial-review-campaign-update

Noticed this article in the Guardian, too:

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/28/self-harm-among-female-prisoners-in-england-and-wales-at-record-high

Anyone know if female convicts who identify as men are automatically put in the male estate to because of the rights of transgender people in the prison system? Irrespective of GRC, surgery etc etc?

If would be very very interested in finding that out.

Bracing call to courage from Helen Joyce:

A lot of women found today hard. The MOST misogynistic thing imaginable is imprisoning traumatised women with males - rapists, murderers, other violent male-pattern violent criminals. And today a court said those males’ feelings mattered more than women’s safety and dignity 1/n [thread continues]

twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1411043948941004805

Leaving aside the practicalities of taking the MoJ to court, the judgement (policy is legal if adequately risk assessed) means that any woman harmed in the prison estate by a male prisoner can now bring a case alleging that they failed to show due diligence. Karen White's victims for instance. IIRC, that case was explained by saying there was a failure in risk assessment. But the judge in this case said that the policy can be lawfully applied as long as the risk is properly assessed. We already know they aren't doing that.

One thought which shamefully hadn't occurred to me until now: so far all the stories we've heard about this issue are about adult prisons. What is happening in young offenders estates?

If what is happening is basically a policy of self-ID, then the distinction between adult and child in terms of eligibility for GRC doesn't matter. It doesn't seem credible that there won't be young males who'll also be seeking to enter girls' facilities.

Does anybody know what the situation is there?

@CharlieParley

Leaving aside the practicalities of taking the MoJ to court, the judgement (policy is legal if adequately risk assessed) means that any woman harmed in the prison estate by a male prisoner can now bring a case alleging that they failed to show due diligence. Karen White's victims for instance. IIRC, that case was explained by saying there was a failure in risk assessment. But the judge in this case said that the policy can be lawfully applied as long as the risk is properly assessed. We already know they aren't doing that.

Yes, that was something I thought too

@HerewardTheWoke

One thought which shamefully hadn't occurred to me until now: so far all the stories we've heard about this issue are about adult prisons. What is happening in young offenders estates?

If what is happening is basically a policy of self-ID, then the distinction between adult and child in terms of eligibility for GRC doesn't matter. It doesn't seem credible that there won't be young males who'll also be seeking to enter girls' facilities.

Does anybody know what the situation is there?

Alex Chalk confirmed in response to a PQ asked by Kenny MacAskill that the policy on transgender prisoners is in the early stages of review. In documents we obtained by FOIA request, we have read that as part of or in conjunction with this review, guidelines for Youth Custody Services will also be issued.

We will be asking our supportive MPs and Peers to ask Qs about this and will be taking specialist advice as to the best way to proceed.

@NiceGerbil

Anyone know if female convicts who identify as men are automatically put in the male estate to because of the rights of transgender people in the prison system? Irrespective of GRC, surgery etc etc?

If would be very very interested in finding that out.

I'd like to know this too. During the JR, the judge asked for info including how many biological women are housed in the male estate.

I can't see any mention of this in the judgement.

There has been at least one situation where a male was put in a female inpatient MH facility.

That was reported there may be more.

2019

The MoJ also reported 20 trans men – all of whom are in women’s prisons.

@NiceGerbil

Anyone know if female convicts who identify as men are automatically put in the male estate to because of the rights of transgender people in the prison system? Irrespective of GRC, surgery etc etc?

If would be very very interested in finding that out.

No female prisoner would be allowed in the male prisons for her own safety. Irrelevant of gender identity etc

But of course they are no trans men or female non binary people asking to go to the male estate. Which is interesting.

I am sure I read that MOJ had said something similar.

The right decision. Sexual assaults in women prisons are common and are an issue but they are not made by MtF trans prisoners. The whole prison thing is a red herring as trans women cannot just self identify into a women's facility. They have to be risk assessed first on a case by case basis. In fact the Karen White incident is the example that proves the rule because the prison service admits it failed to carry out the due diligence that was expected of it. As far as I understand, women who are violent sex offenders are kept in male prisons anyway.

Now this is finished perhaps women will look to support those viulnerable prisoners who coerced into sex for safety or just plain sexually assaulted by male staff or other prisoners.

Worrys but why aren't their rights as a transgender person being respected?

That seems very odd....

Lucky that Karen White is the best only incident… eh…wait…

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/9206136/trans-killer-romping-female-switch-womens-jail/amp/

@DisgustedofManchester

The right decision. Sexual assaults in women prisons are common and are an issue but they are not made by MtF trans prisoners. The whole prison thing is a red herring as trans women cannot just self identify into a women's facility. They have to be risk assessed first on a case by case basis. In fact the Karen White incident is the example that proves the rule because the prison service admits it failed to carry out the due diligence that was expected of it. As far as I understand, women who are violent sex offenders are kept in male prisons anyway.

Now this is finished perhaps women will look to support those viulnerable prisoners who coerced into sex for safety or just plain sexually assaulted by male staff or other prisoners.

What about the ones other than Karen white?

I'm not sure having an 'exception that proves the rule is the most... Sensitive thing to say tbh.

' As far as I understand, women who are violent sex offenders are kept in male prisons anyway.'

Mixed in with the male prisoners? Showering with them etc etc?

Do you have a link for that?

I raised the point about violence in prisons and young offenders institutes earlier.

I offered to link to a couple of charities. Did you want the links?

Should all men at risk in the male estate be risk assessed to go on with the women? If not why not?

As far as I understand, women who are violent sex offenders are kept in male prisons anyway.

Do you mean convicted rapists (i.e. men who have raped women with their penis) who now 'identify as women'. Or do you mean women (who under UK law cannot commit rape because they do not have a penis) who have committed a sexual offense?

I find it hard to believe the latter are incarcerated in the male estate. If any of the former are incarcerated in the female estate, it is nothing more than state sanctioned rape and should be a national shame.

@DisgustedofManchester

The right decision. Sexual assaults in women prisons are common and are an issue but they are not made by MtF trans prisoners. The whole prison thing is a red herring as trans women cannot just self identify into a women's facility. They have to be risk assessed first on a case by case basis. In fact the Karen White incident is the example that proves the rule because the prison service admits it failed to carry out the due diligence that was expected of it. As far as I understand, women who are violent sex offenders are kept in male prisons anyway.

Now this is finished perhaps women will look to support those viulnerable prisoners who coerced into sex for safety or just plain sexually assaulted by male staff or other prisoners.

This is a long way from finished mate. Women are not going to shut up about it.

The High Court judgement admitted that women are being harmed and that self ID sex offenders are in women's prisons.

Sexual assaults in women prisons are common and are an issue but they are not made by MtF trans prisoners.

Oh yes they fucking are, the woman who brought the JR was sexually assaulted by one.

They whole prison thing is a red herring as trans women cannot just self identify into a women's facility. They have to be risk assessed first on a case by case basis

The DM has now made the judgment one of its top stories and have updated it to include Karen White.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9750105/High-Court-rules-transgender-women-female-prisons.html

The right decision.

For people who view women as acceptable collateral damage, yes.

Now this is finished perhaps women will look to support those viulnerable prisoners who coerced into sex for safety or just plain sexually assaulted by male staff or other prisoners.

Dream on. It's nowhere near finished.

What is it today with people telling us where we should be focusing our attention? I'll continue to support the most vulnerable women in society being locked up with males against their will, ta. Sentencing women, who have likely already been abused by men, to an increased risk of sexual assault/rape and trauma is psychopathic.

And the fix for male staff assaulting women, and women assaulting other women is not throwing more dangers into the mix.

Oh ffs, pressed send inadvertently.
DoM, are you absolutely sure about that, and can you cite credible sources?
Because my understanding is that transfer is on the Open Sesame of 'I'm a laydee, me' and that risk assessment if any is post facto. I would like you to be right, but Bayes Theorem....

I would really like to hear if Adam Wagner and the rest of the “rights aren’t pie” legal-men-of-Twitter crew can still justify the increased anxiety and risk that women prisoners have to bear, in order to satisfy law about gender identity. I see that Adam Wagner is silent about it today, although Jo Maugham had a little gloat about it being lawful to increase the suffering of women prisoners.

I wonder if there is a case to say that being locked up with a sex offender is degrading to a woman prisoner and therefore in breach of the ECHR, which I believe the UK is still signed up to.

The ruling is disappointing but anyone reading it can see clearly the nature of the issue women prisoners face here.