Prisons Judicial Review: Judgement

[KeepPrisonsSingleSex]

It's finally here...
The judgement in the prisons judicial review R (FDJ) v SSJ
will be handed down by email at 10.30 am today...

Here is a reminder of what it was about:

www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/judicial-review-campaign-update

Wow... is being on GB News a good things for a groups credibility in not wanting to appear completely right wing?

GB news?

Who what?

Not seen it.

Confused. Who is on it?

Which group?

Need more info please.

@NiceGerbil

GB news?

Who what?

Not seen it.

Confused. Who is on it?

Me and here:

Disgusted - I am confident enough in the veracity of what I say and the aims and objectives of our campaign that I have no concerns that my words or our campaign will be 'tainted'.

I note that you ignore the other media coverage for this topic. As well as the extensive coverage that Fair Play for Women have had discussing sports over the past couple of weeks.

And frankly, after this weekend's escapades, if it's a choice between being associated with GB News or Antifa, I know which one I prefer.

What, the group fighting against women being raped in prison? Their credibility is in
pretty good standing unless you are someone who agrees with state sanctioned rape.

Oh thanks OP!

What this has taught me. And it's a big change in a way.

Although I have on my book pile the communist manifesto, and Lenin. And I would be interested to read mein kampf and Mao. And I have read plenty of things by eg various extreme religions, cults, anti abortion sites etc.

This interest in trying to understand the reasoning, why people went for it etc.

I did have a blind spot with the news outlets.

This one good this one bad.

This has made me read stuff from all sorts of sources.

If you ignore what those with views you don't like are saying, you have no chance of understanding what is wanted and why it has traction. How can you argue against something if you don't know what their arguments are and why they are supported by some/ lots of people?

Sitting in a self righteous bubble of me right they wrong end of. Is. Well it's arrogant and lacks... Interest? Curiosity? Not sure of the word.

The world is becoming so polarised on so many topics. There is undoubtedly a rise in extremism around religion and more.

It's a real worry.

On this topic with you OP.

It goes. These are the approved media outlets. Oh they won't allow any views on this? ( That the vast majority of women in the population will agree with)...

Shame. Looks like you have no way of getting more awareness of the issues as you see them.

You've spoken to them instead? BAD. You are plainly evil to the core...

It's what I believe they call a catch 22..!

Anything to avoid engaging with the points being made. Attacks and childish smears is the only option.

Well, there is another option, but that's having to engage and admit that one thinks it's fine for vulnerable women to be locked up with rapists, but no one has the cojones to just come out and say that.

There is an answer and I've seen it on here... It was on this thread earlier I think?

It goes.

Everyone is capable of crime.

Both sexes commit violent and sex offences (ignore stats and common sense about male v female propensity to committing those crimes).

It's the type of offence that is important not the sex of the criminal.

Female violent / sex offenders are in with the women. The risk is assessed and managed. Transwomen violent / sex offenders should be managed in the same way.

Situations like Karen white were a process failure that's all.

Men and women are subjected to violence in prison. Why don't you care about that? (Don't we?!)

It's the violence that needs to be addressed (ongoing really difficult massive thing with little success from the charities that do that and private companies and public not interested and little chance of more money) so sort that out! (Rather than pushing for female prisons to be female, and transwomen (and others at risk in men's prisons?) being accomodated in a way that mitigates that risk. (Recent change, public generally think ??).

Interestingly that obviously points to mixed sex prisons.

That however is definitely not the right answer (???!!!).

Also the idea that males at risk in men's prisons should all get the protection of women's prison is also definitely not s good idea...

Logical, eh?

Is the “ Karen Jones” mentioned in that attached thread the same person who made the horrible sign about JKR that was seen last weekend? The MO sounds very similar, if not the same.

I’ve just checked , and to answer my own question, it’s not the same person, but my god that story is horrific. How the hell was that person allowed to speak out about anything?

@Rhannion

I’ve just checked , and to answer my own question, it’s not the same person, but my god that story is horrific. How the hell was that person allowed to speak out about anything?

And particularly given the grounds for the release (which I can see being repeated).

@NiceGerbil

There is an answer and I've seen it on here... It was on this thread earlier I think?

It goes.

Everyone is capable of crime.

Both sexes commit violent and sex offences (ignore stats and common sense about male v female propensity to committing those crimes).

It's the type of offence that is important not the sex of the criminal.

Female violent / sex offenders are in with the women. The risk is assessed and managed. Transwomen violent / sex offenders should be managed in the same way.

Situations like Karen white were a process failure that's all.

Men and women are subjected to violence in prison. Why don't you care about that? (Don't we?!)

It's the violence that needs to be addressed (ongoing really difficult massive thing with little success from the charities that do that and private companies and public not interested and little chance of more money) so sort that out! (Rather than pushing for female prisons to be female, and transwomen (and others at risk in men's prisons?) being accomodated in a way that mitigates that risk. (Recent change, public generally think ??).

Exactly.

My response is: well at the moment we DO (at least nominally) have separate prisons for men and for women. If you disagree with the way the prison estate is structured and believe it would a better and more effective use of resources to structure the prison estate along the lines you suggest, then you are free to campaign and lobby for that, advancing evidence to support your position.

Strangely, no one seems to want to do that....

Also worth pointing out: compare the numbers of category A prisoners for the male and female estate.

There are a number of category A prisons for men. There are so few category A women prisoners there is not even one designated prison for them.

A category A male prisoner moving from the mens estate to the women's estate is automatically moving to an easier, lower regime than they would be allowed if they were in the men's estate. Comparable women prisoners number something like 8-15 at most in the entire estate.

Transwomen are male. That is what the trans means. No male people should be housed in the female estate, and it is especially outrageous to inflict male serious sex offenders upon the exact group they offended against to meet the choices and needs of the male prisoner. Access to female people regardless of their consent is not a right. Those female people insisting that it should be are very welcome to go be locked up with these prisoners and to personally provide the female company and nurture they feel should be available. Their body, their choice, and presumably they'll accept the risk or any actual harm to themselves as properly risk assessed, nothing to worry about, and not mind if it happens.

I'd also repeat for those at the back: reflect on what 'serious sex offender' in terms of a several year prison sentence actually means. Bearing in mind that less than 1% of rapes ends in a successful prosecution, never mind a prison sentence. To be imprisoned, for several years, under the label of 'serious sex offender' - just reflect on the number and severity of crimes committed against women and/or children for a court to award that? The danger seen to the general public to award that?

Some people's boundaries and sense of right and wrong is just beyond fucked. There is nothing about this that is ok. Nothing.

keepprisonssinglesex Katie John Went, who spoke after you, was not being truthful. They claimed that most people with a GRC have fully transitioned bodily….that is an outrageous lie! 85% of trans women retain their male genitalia.

I would also add that sadly many men take their own lives in prison, that doesn’t give men access to the female estate though-why on earth this small cohort of men who identify as women, are treated differently is beyond me.

Will I have to hand in my feminist card if I say I loved your earrings on GB News KeepPrisonsSingleSex?

@NiceGerbil

On this topic with you OP.

It goes. These are the approved media outlets. Oh they won't allow any views on this? ( That the vast majority of women in the population will agree with)...

Shame. Looks like you have no way of getting more awareness of the issues as you see them.

You've spoken to them instead? BAD. You are plainly evil to the core...

It's what I believe they call a catch 22..!

Amen

@happydappy2

keepprisonssinglesex Katie John Went, who spoke after you, was not being truthful. They claimed that most people with a GRC have fully transitioned bodily….that is an outrageous lie! 85% of trans women retain their male genitalia.

I would also add that sadly many men take their own lives in prison, that doesn’t give men access to the female estate though-why on earth this small cohort of men who identify as women, are treated differently is beyond me.

Correct. The very large majority do not have surgical reassignment and there is no requirement to do so in order to obtain a GRC.

The suicide of any prisoner is a tragedy and a failure of the prison service to protect and support prisoners. The male estate needs to step up.

@TheHandmadeTails

Will I have to hand in my feminist card if I say I loved your earrings on GB News KeepPrisonsSingleSex?

Thank you!

I tried to make sure they were all the right way up before I went on and also to remember not to fiddle with them.

Transwomen are male. That is what the trans means. No male people should be housed in the female estate, and it is especially outrageous to inflict male serious sex offenders upon the exact group they offended against to meet the choices and needs of the male prisoner. Access to female people regardless of their consent is not a right. Those female people insisting that it should be are very welcome to go be locked up with these prisoners and to personally provide the female company and nurture they feel should be available. Their body, their choice, and presumably they'll accept the risk or any actual harm to themselves as properly risk assessed, nothing to worry about, and not mind if it happens.

How about the prison service sets up a volunteering scheme whereby all the women who agree TWAW and that transwomen prisoners’ (sex offenders and rapists included) need for female company and socialisation is super important* can drop in as day visitors to provide this service? If there are female prisoners also on hoard with this, they can drop into the sessions too. That way the unconsenting females in the women’s estate keep their single sex space and the transwomen get to mix with women who are totally on board, consenting and happy to share tips on wommaning properly. Win-win. I am sure lots of these cheerful young intersectional feminists and celebs will be there like a shot.

If TWAW then surely tgey can socialise with each other?

How about the prison service sets up a volunteering scheme whereby all the women who agree TWAW and that transwomen prisoners’ (sex offenders and rapists included) need for female company and socialisation is super important can drop in as day visitors to provide this service? If there are female prisoners also on hoard with this, they can drop into the sessions too.*

Quite. Or provide separate units or prisons some of which are designated mixed sex and some of which are natal females only, and male people can choose whether they go to the male estate or mixed sex estate, and female people can also choose whether they go to the mixed sex estate or the natal female only estate.

Equality of respect for choice and identity, and actual consent, plus respect for differing beliefs.

Considering that there is no question of ever allowing TM into the male estate for their own safety (which raises a lot of interesting questions about if women sexually assaulting each other is managed any way so what does it matter if TW are present and offending, well obviously male prisoners in the male estate sexually assault each other and are managed so why the concern specifically for TM?) what is the tipping point of numbers where there are sufficient percentages of male people present that the risk assessment is even more totally fucked?

How about the prison service sets up a volunteering scheme whereby all the women who agree TWAW and that transwomen prisoners’ (sex offenders and rapists included) need for female company and socialisation is super important can drop in as day visitors to provide this service? If there are female prisoners also on hoard with this, they can drop into the sessions too. That way the unconsenting females in the women’s estate keep their single sex space and the transwomen get to mix with women who are totally on board, consenting and happy to share tips on wommaning properly. Win-win. I am sure lots of these cheerful young intersectional feminists and celebs will be there like a shot.

Perfect solution, I'm sure those who support this will sign up like a shot, Lisa Nandy and Dawn Butler will fight over first place in the queue no doubt. It should go further and give them the true immersive experience of sharing showers and all enclosed spaces as that will ensure full validation, socialisation and acceptance for the TW which I am sure they will be delighted to do as they believe in it so wholeheartedly.