Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prisons Judicial Review: Judgement

468 replies

KeepPrisonsSingleSex · 02/07/2021 09:02

It's finally here...
The judgement in the prisons judicial review R (FDJ) v SSJ
will be handed down by email at 10.30 am today...

Here is a reminder of what it was about:

www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/judicial-review-campaign-update

OP posts:
KeepPrisonsSingleSex · 09/07/2021 09:34

Thanks for linking!

Me talking to Glinner about the JR Judgement:

OP posts:
happydappy2 · 09/07/2021 09:40

That’s quite interesting that 129 males who identify as trans are safely & adequately held within the male estate, yet a small number of males who identify as trans are moved to the womens estate….what possible justification can there be for this? (Especially if they don’t hold a GRC)
The fact that the sexual reoffending risk assessment tool cannot be used on males with a GRC is madness! Also we’ve had Karen White assault 2 women, this anonymous woman who bought the JR has been assaulted, how many women have to be hurt & abused for the MOJ to re think this policy (that no one else thinks is a sensible or fair idea.)

Signalbox · 09/07/2021 17:57

I wrote to my MP (conservative) and got a very generic and irrelevant response about 30 minutes later.

Thank you for your email about transgender prisoners.

The Government is committed to ensuring that everyone is treated fairly, lawfully and decently, with their rights and safety properly respected. Regardless of where a transgender individual is being held, it is expected that everyone will be respected and addressed in the gender with which they identify.

The safety of those in prisons is of paramount importance. Any allegation of sexual assault is taken extremely seriously and robust processes are in place to ensure such incidents are immediately referred to the police and that victims are given the support they need.

I know that HM Prison and Probation Service (HMPPS) have strong safeguards in place to care for and manage transgender individuals in custody. All known risks, both towards and presented by a transgender person in prison, will always be taken into account in their care and management.

I understand that, as of July 2020, there have been no reported incidents of rape or attempted rape by prisoners who have reported they are declared male on their birth certificate who identify as a female in the women’s estate. I am also aware that, as of May 2020, since 2010 out of 122 sexual assaults that occurred in the female estate a total of five of those were sexual assaults against females in custody perpetrated by transgender individuals.

I welcome the Government’s plans to ensure serious sexual and violent criminals will face longer sentences, which will better protect the public. I also am encouraged that as part of the Government’s £2.75 billion investment to transform the UK prison estate, £100 million is being invested in bolstering prison security, clamping down on the weapons, drugs and mobile phones that fuel violence, including sexual assaults and crime behind bars. This will fund tough measures, including x-ray body scanners and phone-blocking technology.

Thank you for raising this issue with me, I hope this information will be helpful.

happydappy2 · 09/07/2021 18:15

That is simply not true....if male prisoners with a GRC are legally 'women' if they attack a female inmate it will be recorded that a woman attacked a woman. The data collection on male prisoners in womens prisons is recklessly flawed

Thevenerableswede · 09/07/2021 19:32

Yes Happydappy2 the statistics are not to be trusted. Why can’t the people that should know better see this? We have to keep asking the question

Signalbox · 09/07/2021 19:35

Yes good point happydappy2. I'll pop that in my reply for all the good it'll do.

GrandmaMazur · 13/07/2021 10:58

@KeepPrisonsSingleSex

Been reading though it....

FWIW, this is our take:

The Divisional Court has ruled in favour of the Secretary of State for Justice that the MoJ’s policies in relation to the allocation of prisoners of the male sex who identify as transgender are capable of being operated lawfully. This was the first time that the High Court has considered the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act (2010). As such, we knew this would be a challenging case to win.

Key to this lawful operation is the adequacy of risk assessment procedures. At paragraph 79: Throughout the policies, the need to assess and manage all risks is repeatedly emphasised.

The MoJ has repeatedly stressed that risk assessment processes are in place to keep women in prison safe when they are housed with prisoners of the male sex who identify as transgender, including those who have a GRC. However, the risk assessment tool that is used for adult men who have been convicted of sexual or sexually motivated offences, the OASys Sexual reoffending Predictor Score (OSP), is not used for male prisoners with a GRC because these prisoners are treated as female, and this risk assessment tool is not to be used with female offenders. There is no alternative risk assessment tool for use with women. Documents obtained by us through FOIA indicate that no consideration was given to the safety of female offenders when drawing up the conditions of use for the OSP with prisoners of the male sex who identify as transgender.

The judgement pointed to the unsatisfactory practices of data collection whereby prisoners with a Gender Recognition Certificate are not included in the statistics for transgender prisoners: prisoners of the male sex with a GRC have been recorded as female and only as female in all records. We are pleased that, as a result of this legal case, this practice is now changing. In response to a PQ asked by Andrew Rosindell, Alex Chalk confirms that from this year data will be reported on prisoners with GRCs. Accurate data collection is vital in order to assess the impact of the MoJ policies.

Last week, Alex Chalk confirmed in response to a PQ by Kenny MacAskill that the MoJ are in the early stages of reviewing the policy framework in respect of transgender prisoners. This is welcome. As the judgement stated at paragraph 72: It is necessary to be clear about what the court is, and is not, called upon to decide… it is a challenge to the lawful not the desirability of the policies.

The judgement by no means comments on the desirability of housing prisoners of the male sex in the female prison estate, nor whether the MoJ may take a different approach to ensuring the safety and dignity of this group of male prisoners. The judgement makes clear that the fears and anxieties of women in prison on being housed with prisoners of the male sex who identify as transgender are fully understandable, even in the absence of an incident such as a sexual assault. At paragraph 76: Many people may think it incongruous and inappropriate that a prisoner of masculine physique and with male genitalia should be accommodated in a female prison in any circumstances.

We concur with this view.

We hope that the recent decision by the MoJ to leave the Stonewall Diversity Champion Scheme signifies the intention to take a more balanced and equitable approach to policy development and implementation where the needs of female offenders are first and foremost in decisions that impact on the female prison estate. The judgement makes clear that these policies do impact on women in prison and that policies that seek to accommodate prisoners of the male sex who identify as transgender in women's prisons may discriminate against female prisoners.

@KeepPrisonsSingleSex Can you direct me to any published information or FOIA response about the lack of OSP risk assessment in transgender prisoners?

I want to put something about this in my reply to my MP.

Thank you.

KeepPrisonsSingleSex · 13/07/2021 14:09

@GrandmaMazur

I haven't published anything on this, but one of our MPs/Peers has asked a PQ about this. When this is answered, then it will be in the public domain.

OP posts:
GrandmaMazur · 13/07/2021 14:18

@KeepPrisonsSingleSex Thank you! I just want to try and make sure I cover everything I can in my next letter to my MP.

He sent me a shorter version of the generic response Signalbox pasted above. Which didn’t mention women once but did state that HMPPS has strong safeguards in place to care for and manage transgender individuals in custody.

BaronMunchausen · 13/07/2021 14:47

"We are pleased that, as a result of this legal case, this practice is now changing. In response to a PQ asked by Andrew Rosindell, Alex Chalk confirms that from this year data will be reported on prisoners with GRCs."

If people with GRCs have previously been hidden, the MoJ statement that there had been seven sexual assaults perpetrated by transgender individuals 2010-2019 referred to male-bodied people in women's prisons without a GCR. So the stat where 1% of transwomen are responsible for 5.6% of sexual assaults in women’s prisons is likely to be higher...

GrandmaMazur · 19/07/2021 10:42

Have had another response from my MP (Tory) who has invited me to go and talk to him at one of his surgeries later in the year. It’s the first time I’ve ever done this. I’m not holding out much hope that I’ll be able to change his mind on anything but would be grateful if anyone has any suggestions about the best way to approach the meeting.

Manderleyagain · 28/04/2025 15:06

I don't know if it's the done thing to resurrect ancient threads, but I was really struck by how much has changed when i remembered this case. This judicial review was lost (I think the judgement is in page 2 of the thread). If I remember properly, it was brought around the case of a female prisoner who said she was sexually assaulted by a male prisoner convicted of rape, who was housed in a female prison under the trans prisoners policy. The court considered the rules that mean men and women are housed separately, and the exceptions in the Equality Act. But they concluded the policy was lawful - it was legal to put a male rapist in a women's prison.

I don't think the case would end the same if it was heard today. The supreme court has cut through the obfuscation about what sex means in the EA, and I would guess the prison rules, which were from 1999, would be read as meaning biological sex too.

PerkyBlinder · 28/04/2025 16:04

I was thinking about this the other day. I remember the judge reading the judgement and he said he realised how it seemed like something which shouldn’t happen but he had no choice but to declare it lawful. Now it’s obvious it isn’t.

i also seem to remember he noted that there was a choice that the prison service could have made in this situation to legally exclude the trans woman but they weren’t compelled to use it in law. Now it seems they will be compelled to use it by law.

Meme69 · 29/04/2025 06:51

PerkyBlinder · 28/04/2025 16:04

I was thinking about this the other day. I remember the judge reading the judgement and he said he realised how it seemed like something which shouldn’t happen but he had no choice but to declare it lawful. Now it’s obvious it isn’t.

i also seem to remember he noted that there was a choice that the prison service could have made in this situation to legally exclude the trans woman but they weren’t compelled to use it in law. Now it seems they will be compelled to use it by law.

You'd think that the original claimant had a case for discrimination in this now

WandaSiri · 29/04/2025 07:00

Meme69 · 29/04/2025 06:51

You'd think that the original claimant had a case for discrimination in this now

This is what I took from the judgement - that the EA is not prescriptive, so the MoJ can have a policy of housing males in women's prisons. However, this choice not to use the exceptions means it has no statutory defence against claims of sex discrimination or claims for harm to individual women caused by this policy (and iirc the judgement said harm was foreseeable).

At the time, it seemed to be as if the judge was saying "I have to declare the policy lawful, but if you sue you will win."

Signalbox · 29/04/2025 07:55

Manderleyagain · 28/04/2025 15:06

I don't know if it's the done thing to resurrect ancient threads, but I was really struck by how much has changed when i remembered this case. This judicial review was lost (I think the judgement is in page 2 of the thread). If I remember properly, it was brought around the case of a female prisoner who said she was sexually assaulted by a male prisoner convicted of rape, who was housed in a female prison under the trans prisoners policy. The court considered the rules that mean men and women are housed separately, and the exceptions in the Equality Act. But they concluded the policy was lawful - it was legal to put a male rapist in a women's prison.

I don't think the case would end the same if it was heard today. The supreme court has cut through the obfuscation about what sex means in the EA, and I would guess the prison rules, which were from 1999, would be read as meaning biological sex too.

I was thinking the same about the Ann Sinnott case which challenged the EHRC guidance.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 29/04/2025 08:22

Signalbox · 29/04/2025 07:55

I was thinking the same about the Ann Sinnott case which challenged the EHRC guidance.

Sinnott has been on my mind.

Who will undertake the re-education of so many legal and other professionals who erred so egregiously?

And who will pay for this beyond those who were victimised by their flawed understanding?

New posts on this thread. Refresh page