Joan of Arc was trans????

[Greenandcabbagelooking]

It's Schools Diversity Week this week. There has been no mention of any kind of diversity other than LGBTQIA+. Heavy on the T. We've been reminded every day for weeks about this.

Today's update says Joan of Arc was trans because she didn't dress like a woman. There's even a discussion on the pronouns she (sorry, he/they) would have used. Silly me, I though Joan was just a woman who was fed up with the limitations her sex imposed on her. Clearly short hair + trousers = man.

I'm all for showing young people a diverse range of role models, but transing people who lived several hundred years ago is not all that helpful.

@Greenandcabbagelooking

See also the doctor James Barry. Probably not trans, just a woman who wanted to be a surgeon and wasn't allow because of her sex.

I received about 10 death threats via Facebook for saying that James Barry was a woman. An adult human female.

@GoingGently forget Branwell being drunk (v funny by the by!) I am beginning to think some of the people who promote this are either; drunk, on hallucinogenic drugs or living in an alternative dimension
Certainly an alternative recreated history

I do think we can't know about ID of historical figures. We don't know for certain if certain women who 'lived as men' identified as men or did it because they, quite understandably, didn't want to live with the limitations of being a woman and wanted to see the world, have a demanding job, join the army etc. Unless we have it recorded in a reliable source that such a person believed themselves to be male, we shouldn't impose upon that,

Similarly with men who may have lived as women in the past - maybe they identified as female, or maybe they were gay and found living as a woman allowed them to be with the man or men they loved?

Regarding James Barry, the same thought applies about trying to place modern ideas onto historical figures. None of us can possibly know what her motivation was. If she was born now, she might have been totally happy to be an out lesbian in a same sex marriage, working as a doctor. Or she might have been one of the many variants of transgender. It is impossible to say.

Unfortunately we will never know one way or the other.

What utter tosh. She was a biological woman, and she said she was a woman. How is that “not knowing”? Hey maybe it’s because she’s a woman so we can’t take her word for it

[quote AssassinatedBeauty]@Imasoulman I think it's pretty darn clear from her own words that she didn't in any way claim to be man and in fact specifically referenced her womanhood.

Never mind that it is absurd to try to apply modern ideas onto historical figures - it is a different culture, different society, different norms, different level of understanding of the world and science.... [/quote]

I am not suggesting for one moment that she was Trans.

I have already said its absurd and she should be left alone.

Its absurd to think that trans people did not exist though.

She was illiterate, so these words of hers are actually what someone else has recorded.

[quote AssassinatedBeauty]@Imasoulman I think it's pretty darn clear from her own words that she didn't in any way claim to be man and in fact specifically referenced her womanhood.

Never mind that it is absurd to try to apply modern ideas onto historical figures - it is a different culture, different society, different norms, different level of understanding of the world and science.... [/quote]
Actually, your levels of 'science' are probably on a par... it was mostly magical thinking back then too

@MrsBunHat

Unfortunately we will never know one way or the other.

What utter tosh. She was a biological woman, and she said she was a woman. How is that “not knowing”? Hey maybe it’s because she’s a woman so we can’t take her word for it

Love it people edit a quote to make it completely one sided

This isn't a discussion about whether trans people existed in history. This is about stupid stupid attempts to muddy the water and suggest that because a famous woman in history (one of very few of course) had short hair, wore armour and practical men's clothes she was actually a man.

@AssassinatedBeauty

This isn't a discussion about whether trans people existed in history. This is about stupid stupid attempts to muddy the water and suggest that because a famous woman in history (one of very few of course) had short hair, wore armour and practical men's clothes she was actually a man.

Yes and as I have repeatedly said its completely ridiculous!

Whichever school is running this utter anti-historical trash should be ashamed of themselves. If you're a parent OP complain. It is utter bullshit. So totally anti-historical.

Oh I wondered how long before the insults began.

I’masoulman you said “ Unfortunately we will never know one way or the other.” about Joan of arc. Or didn’t you?

@MrsBunHat

I’masoulman you said “ Unfortunately we will never know one way or the other.” about Joan of arc. Or didn’t you?

Yes I did, that's a fact. Doesn't mean that I for one second think she was trans.

@Imasoulman

Oh I wondered how long before the insults began.

If you're referring to my "stupid" comment, I am referencing the School leadership who put this in their bulletin. Not you, @Imasoulman.

Well.. when you argue stuff that’s clearly nonsense and unsupportable, people will point out that you’re being unscientific and talking bollocks surely? Is that insults or just counteracting nonsense?

She didn’t “present as a man”
She definitely was a woman and thought she was a woman so she was not in any way trans - it’s not unclear in the least.

She called herself the maid and yes her words were reported, but are you suggesting what she really said at the stake could have been “I’m coming out as john of arc, it’s such a relief to be my true self as a man” and it was misreported because of transphobia.
?

Wasn't you no, sorry for some reason the quote didn't attach. But definitely Wasn't you.

They have also been trying to trans Viking women which I greatly resent. Viking women were strong and went out in raids as well. They were not men. Women participated in all aspects of Viking life and I’m sick to death of hearing about Viking women identifying as men. That’s biggest load of nonsense I’ve ever heard. It’s common knowledge in Sweden and Scandinavia in general that Viking women also went out in roads. So how come whenever Brits come across a Viking grave if there is a female she must be trans? All one has to do is ask a Scandinavian and we would tell you.

How about Viking women and Scandinavian women have always been strong and it was nothing wrong if a woman wanted to go out on a raid. Granting she was not pregnant of course. She was a woman who was also a Viking.. and Vikings raid. Men and women alike.

@Imasoulman

Wasn't you no, sorry for some reason the quote didn't attach. But definitely Wasn't you.

@AssassinatedBeauty

For all the people asking for pics, it's on my work email and I won't be sharing that. I'm not ashamed to be GC, but I need my job.

I hate that I'm not brave enough to speak up. So I shall just rant here. You're an excellent nest of vipers really.

Correction 500. Women can’t be brave, strong. Fight, have an opinion.

I’m waiting for the moment where we can’t own property or open a bank account without our husbands.

The assumption that any strong woman who refused to conform to societal expectations must be trans was, and is, quite spectacularly sexist. It’s funny that the people pushing this idea don’t realise that it’s the absolute opposite of progressive.

Presenting someone historical as trans is as risible as presenting someone historical as gay. Unless there's evidence or at least a strong suggestion from the time (a diary?) that they likely were these things.

Oddly enough, with all this post-mortem identification, it's always people who are broadly viewed as positive and sympathetic who are named and NEVER anybody else. I don't think anyone anywhere has suggested that Hitler was trans, have they?

So if I decide to cut my hair short I’m a man? I have on trousers so am I now a man?

What is this foolishness?

Are they actually going to erase women from history?!