This was a bad idea

[GCandproud]

Splitting the forums that is. Sex and gender underlies all feminist issues and you’re now ensuring that a lot of important topics don’t get as much traffic. I won’t be hanging around here but just wanted to make my views clear.

On one of the threads in the new section an angry sounding poster used a misogynistic slur

This kind of stuff is depressing to see but seems to be one result in all this

chicken I spend a lot of time on this board and I honestly don't think that's a fair criticism. I certainly don't think there's a toxic atmosphere of aggression at all - I've always found it to be a place of support for women. Perhaps you have a different impression because you are essentially not in alignment with the majority view here, and so obviously don't feel your position is supported. That's not a problem with the board itself, merely evidence that it is not a good fit for you.

I wasn't in favour of the split at all, and am finding it ridiculously un-user friendly, which means I haven't checked the Feminist Chat board at all today as the way I access MN now brings me directly to this board. However, perhaps it really is the best in the long run, and the two boards will run parallel to each other, and everyone will find a supportive place for discussion. I don't think it's helpful to blame/shame women who hold fundamentally opposing views for not being kind enough on their own discussion forum.

Posting is highly intimidating and not in the slightest informative. Perhaps in the old days time would be given to leading a horse to water. But nowadays it is a total aggressive pile on

Have to say this doesnt chime with me. I`m not an academic who has studied womens issues and have never felt attacked when responding or asking questions. Plus I have gained a lot of information from other posters and useful links. Its a bit baffling that some seem to have found the old board so hostile.

Posting is highly intimidating and not in the slightest informative.

Are you referring to AIBU section?

I learnt lots that didn’t need to add anything, which when no wordsmith it’s a relief. There is newbie section for those who need to feel special and welcomed, FWR nor any other section on MN does that.

Have been eagerly waiting for all this topics to read that complainers said they couldn’t post before.

So I respond to being ridiculed, as a woman, posting on a women's forum, yet I should be kind in doing so?

OK.

@chickenyhead

So I respond to being ridiculed, as a woman, posting on a women's forum, yet I should be kind in doing so?

OK.

Is that directed at me?

I'm not saying you should be kind at all. I'm just saying it doesn't achieve anything to throw around words like vitriol, aggressive pile-on and bitter encampment when the issue is that your views are fundamentally opposed to the prevailing ethos on the board.

But now there is a new board where hopefully you'll find your viewpoint represented much more widely, and we can all jog along more happily, without anyone having to feel 'ridiculed' (I missed the bit where you said that. I'm sorry that you felt that way.)

No you don't have to be kind chickeny It does get feisty here sometimes because people feel strongly about this, plus this has been coming to a head for some time. But several posters have engaged with you in a perfectly respectful way and it would be kind of nice to see that acknowledged.

@flosime I did acknowledge you. Sorry if you felt that I didn't.

Wow.

I wasn't talking about our posts last night chickeny I was referring to other responses to you on this thread today. Why the 'wow'?

And I didn't mean posts by me - I meant from other posters, They might not agree with you but they're thoughtful and respectful. Can't you see them?

I do so apologise @floisme I hadn't got to them as I was responding to the ridicule.

Note to self, must answer every response, even if taken out of context and or sweetly twisted.

I would love to know which of my views are such a bad fit for a feminism forum. It seems to be that indeed there are people who fit, and those who don't.

Thank you to those who identify me as the problem, it is very kind and sweet of you.

Oh and thank you so, so much for helping me to see.

No worries chickeny but I'm disengaging now.

Not really your views, @chickenyhead, but your attitude, as you've demonstrated towards a poster who really did seem to want to engage with you in constructive conversation and took time to explain the historical context of the board.

@Waitwhat23

Not really your views, *@chickenyhead*, but your attitude, as you've demonstrated towards a poster who really did seem to want to engage with you in constructive conversation and took time to explain the historical context of the board.

How odd.

I fully engaged with that poster and was very grateful for her personal input.

I'm glad we have established that it is merely my personality which means that I cannot possibly be allowed an opinion as to why others may find the board intimidating to post on.

I am very grateful to you for pointing this out and I hope that the delay of 20 minutes in responding won't be interpreted as rudeness, I so wouldn't want that to be the case.

Oh come on chickeny that isn't what was said.

You took a perfectly polite comment about it being possible/probable that your own perspective doesn't wholly align with the GC posters here making your feeling like an outlier, unsupported more likely.

But you haven't been told to stop posting here, as I and a few others were yesterday on the other board.

You have had some quite thoughtful and detailed responses, but you seem to have chosen umbrage over engagement.

I hope that, like me and many others who post here decided to, you can work your way through that feeling of affront and keep on posting, asking, challenging on many threads.

You may not change your mind but we would all learn something in the discussion. Which is why many of us post here, after all.

Totally agree. It's a shambles.

There have been many posters over the year or so I've been on the FWR board who would definitely not describe themselves as having GC views but those who came in good faith, to discuss the issues which involve women's rights/trans rights, have contributed to discussions which I believe challenged the assumptions on both sides and certainly made me think of some things in a different way.

Your opinions aren't being censored but it's a discussion board, not a safe space. As Curious mentioned above, we're here to challenge, ask and learn.

I spoke up for Floisme after your wildly sarcastic reply to her which I felt was unfair as I have never seen her be anything but unfailingly polite, to all posters.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

I really am actually in two minds on the GC debate, my instinct is that it has already had devastating impacts upon women's rights, and that whilst policy makers remain male in the majority, this is a full scale war. Lets not even mention professional sport. I also see confused, somewhat naive children being sucked up in to the trans trend. I feel society as it is now has mismanaged their reality and expectations. I cannot be angry at them. I don't feel safe airing my views on here. So this will be my last post, but your message warrants a reply.

What I struggle with is the manner in which the message is conveyed on here. It is brutal at times. I wonder at lurkers who read this hate and shut down and then I think, is this the way to achieve anything?

Despite my acknowledged personality issues, there is aggression and group attack on the board. Some warranted, some not so much.

I was genuinely grateful to the poster who explained the board history, it gave me some deeper understanding. Others have pointed out that I am the problem or my views don't matter. Umbrage? I'm not sure. I am just sick of a genuine opinion resulting in so much...defensiveness. of what? (Purely rhetorical)

I will stick to the chat as before and maybe lurk here for the occasional useful bit of information in handling my DDs woke opinions, (which I won't refuse to fully consider, every time)

Do we need a razor-sharp scientifically-indisputable definition of what a woman is in order to do feminism? People fight for the homeless or the working class without demanding a watertight definition.

////

In a world where babies are aborted for being female and young girls endure FGM this fight is a little different.

That's an interesting and useful post chickeny, thank you for taking the time to write it and explain your perspective.

For my part, I assumed that you were very much not GC, which is why you'd found yourself at odds with posters here. The debate has been ongoing for many years, as previously explained, and I think threads are a mixture of talking amongst ourselves/preaching to the choir and going over the same old ground with visitors (some who stay and become regulars, some who... don't, and whose intentions are to disrupt not debate.) So yes, argument can get robust at times, but I really don't see brutality. The board is closely moderated by MN and monitored by TRAs, and anything 'not in the spirit' is swiftly deleted. There is exasperation and anger and swearing, but nothing like the level of aggression, slurs or hostility regularly seen on other discussion fora.

I'm really sorry that you haven't found it welcoming. I hope you stick around and get to know the place better, in all its moods, and feel able to share your thoughts on issues that affect us all.

I find that Mumsnet has very much caved into the no-debate demand from trans rights activists. Bad form.

Wasn't massively convinced that that sarky post was the sort of 'spirit' you'd accept from anyone else tbh.

Maybe if you're seeing aggressive or rude posts chickeny make a mental note of the username and see if it's two or three posters with a particular style that grates, or if it really is as pervasive as you say?

And maybe allow a bit of good faith - I know my posts sometimes get seen as sarcastic if I ask what I think is a question to be taken on face value but generally I mean what I say and take pains to phrase things in a certain way (then have to caveat with how I'm not being rude, not intended to interrogate, how I am trying to be kind but just want someone to answer my question so I can understand what their viewpoint actually is and the train of thought that led to it!).

And an understanding of the history of the board can make all the difference. If you come onto a thread about male violence against women and girls and 'helpfully' point out that Actually, women do it too, actually, you're likely to be met with short shrift as it's been discussed infinite times, it's usually brought up to derail when we are trying to discuss male violence (as an example).

@WinterTrees

That's an interesting and useful post chickeny, thank you for taking the time to write it and explain your perspective.

For my part, I assumed that you were very much not GC, which is why you'd found yourself at odds with posters here. The debate has been ongoing for many years, as previously explained, and I think threads are a mixture of talking amongst ourselves/preaching to the choir and going over the same old ground with visitors (some who stay and become regulars, some who... don't, and whose intentions are to disrupt not debate.) So yes, argument can get robust at times, but I really don't see brutality. The board is closely moderated by MN and monitored by TRAs, and anything 'not in the spirit' is swiftly deleted. There is exasperation and anger and swearing, but nothing like the level of aggression, slurs or hostility regularly seen on other discussion fora.

I'm really sorry that you haven't found it welcoming. I hope you stick around and get to know the place better, in all its moods, and feel able to share your thoughts on issues that affect us all.

I know that I am mid flounce, but thank you for this. Perhaps I have been unlucky with my chosen lurking threads. It is such a minefield arguing with/educating a teen, I guess that I find the more moderate, but still factual, replies the most useful when my brain gets frazzled.

It's incredibly un-user-friendly now. I want to see both discussion of the erosion of women's rights due to gender ideology (or as Mumsnet would have it 'Sex and Gender debate') and other feminist issues as well. The ghettoisation of one particular issue within feminism is ridiculous.

@CardinalLolzy

Wasn't massively convinced that that sarky post was the sort of 'spirit' you'd accept from anyone else tbh.

Maybe if you're seeing aggressive or rude posts chickeny make a mental note of the username and see if it's two or three posters with a particular style that grates, or if it really is as pervasive as you say?

And maybe allow a bit of good faith - I know my posts sometimes get seen as sarcastic if I ask what I think is a question to be taken on face value but generally I mean what I say and take pains to phrase things in a certain way (then have to caveat with how I'm not being rude, not intended to interrogate, how I am trying to be kind but just want someone to answer my question so I can understand what their viewpoint actually is and the train of thought that led to it!).

And an understanding of the history of the board can make all the difference. If you come onto a thread about male violence against women and girls and 'helpfully' point out that Actually, women do it too, actually, you're likely to be met with short shrift as it's been discussed infinite times, it's usually brought up to derail when we are trying to discuss male violence (as an example).

Thank you for your input.

I am not going to argue the point regarding my exasperated post, but assumptions as to my GC leaning, my right to an opinion, in addition to the expectation that one must always be nice when being criticised and reply within a very short time period, made me feel, yes, othered by a closed group.

I am happy to argue my point on the other forums as tbh they are not as cliquey. It is what it is and I think I have said enough for two lifetimes now.

Thank you all who contributed to my comment regarding the board.