What right to a single sex space do I have and how?

[Avocadowoman]

I saw a comment on another thread and it got me thinking. The comment was (broadly):

'A woman's right to a single sex space cannot co-exist with a transwoman's right to enter a woman's space based on gender identity'.

That is undoubtably true. If a transwoman enters a female space that space is no longer single sex.

However I am unsure what legal rights exist to give women the right to single sex spaces. The trouble seems to be that the law seems to assume that they are something someone will want to provide, and go from there.

Workplace regulations mean I have the right to a single sex toilet at work (but we all know how many workplaces ignore that in their transgender policies).

I haven't looked into prisons legislation.

But I think everything else is based on a providers right to provide a single sex service. If they choose to provide one great, if not I don't think I have the right to one.

If a provider chosses to open a female space to transgender women without a GRC, the people who are being discriminated against (legally) are, I think, not women, but men who would like to access that space but who are turned away and do not say they are transwomen. This makes it much harder to deal with through litigation, I think.

Clearly females are discriminated against in the same way by not being able to go into male spaces if those male spaces are open to transmen without a GRC, but that doesn't help me if what I want is a female space.

If my religion was one which forbade me to (for example) undress with men, then possibly the lack of provision of a single sex space may be discrimination due to my religion - but as it happens that is not my religion so that doesn't help me.

That means that where the single sex space is provided by the government (prison, hospital, school etc) it is the government we can petition to keep those spaces single sex. And that is useful because the government would not want to have a policy that is 'hypothetically discrimatory' if I can put it like that (eg discriminates against a woman who wants to enter a male single sex space, even though that is less likely to happen).

But sports, for example, therefore need to be taken up with each provider/governing body.

Am I missing something? Ot do women actually have very few 'rights to single sex spaces' compared to 'the right to provide a single sex space'?

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

How can data tell us anything when men's crimes are being recorded as women's? Of course then putting aside that not all assaults are reported.

You should never use reported crime, crime surveys are the ones to use. Such as thee CDCs very comprehensive data ... that show no increase in assaults to women in places where there is Self ID in the US!

Crime Survey's show the true level of crime, what people report when asked confidentially, not what the police say.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

No one seems to care by allowing post operative transexuals into women's spaces you're creating a urinary leash for religious women and trauma victims.

Third spaces. Every time. Why aren't they being considered?

Spaces in the UK have always been trans inclusive, why are you bringing in religious women to try and argue for discrimination? Ann Sinnott also brought them up, the Judge dismissed her arguments as obviously "absurd", as trans people have again, for those in the back, always been able to use these spaces.

And that's wrong. Just because women didn't have a voice in it doesn't mean that it doesn't effect them.
I've lived and worked with a lot of Muslim women. It is a problem for them. It does effect how they access services.

No one seems to care by allowing post operative transexuals into women's spaces you're creating a urinary leash for religious women

About 6 months ago I had the opportunity to speak to a Muslim cleric. I had been aware of strict rules governing women being able to undress and be around biological males.

There are passed rulings within Islam that mean laws on males do not apply to those who are post op but do to pre op.

@BlueLipstickRocks

So a transwoman can use the men's because if their safety fears turned out to be real then action could be taken agaibst the offender.

So its OK to put me in a position where I could get raped but I should take comfort that action will be taken against the offender?

But it is ok to put women and girls in that position?

But it is ok to put women and girls in that position?

No, it isn't. That's why a solution needs to be found that's meets the need for not just women but for transsexuals too.

Voyeurism was certainly found to increase in Target stores in USA: womanmeanssomething.com/targetstudy/

Huge amounts of effort and vigour here going into telling natal women that their feelings don't matter, their needs don't matter, their voices don't matter, male people know best and all resources belong to them, and there's nothing they can do about it.

Plus ca fucking change.

It isn't JUST a case of natal women having to prove to the final decimal place beyond all possible doubt that a sufficient number of them have been actually harmed (and that number is always n+1 anyway) before they might be permitted a say in their own resources and boundaries.

There are the women with religious and cultural barriers of their own and of the family and community they live in.
There are the women with Autism and other disabilities who cannot cope with mixed sex spaces regardless of gender identity.
There are the women who have been raped and traumatised and will never be able to remove clothing knowing they are doing so with a stranger in the room that they perceive as male.
There are the women who just plain want dignity, privacy, the association of other natal females for this space or activity, who want to have somewhere to be in the fucking world for five minutes that is not all about them revolving around the never ending, ceaseless demands that they meet the needs of everyone else.

This is pure sexism on crack. And I don't see any difference in empathy or care or even a basic sisterhood and ability to care about natal female people in any of this, regardless of what statements are being made to degree of transition. This just proves, again and again, how subhuman natal women are considered to be and why it matters so much that we stand up at this point and fight for the right to single sex spaces which mean single sex spaces.

Other people's battles have nothing to do with the rights of natal females, and their resources are not communal property that are available as solution.

There are passed rulings within Islam that mean laws on males do not apply to those who are post op but do to pre op.

That is because in countries like Iran they execute homosexuals who don't have forced sex reassignment surgery.

@BlueLipstickRocks

No one seems to care by allowing post operative transexuals into women's spaces you're creating a urinary leash for religious women

About 6 months ago I had the opportunity to speak to a Muslim cleric. I had been aware of strict rules governing women being able to undress and be around biological males.

There are passed rulings within Islam that mean laws on males do not apply to those who are post op but do to pre op.

Just the one Muslim cleric you spoke to, is it? I would be very surprised that the one Muslim cleric (they're male, no?) may speak authoritatively for all traditions, never mind the big branches of Islam.

It would also be interesting to see how they define 'post op' male. If not just face or boob surgery, it would also be interesting to see if this could logically also apply to men who have non working, modified or removed reproductive parts due to illness and accident.

@Thymeinthegarden

Huge amounts of effort and vigour here going into telling natal women that their feelings don't matter, their needs don't matter, their voices don't matter, male people know best and all resources belong to them, and there's nothing they can do about it.

Plus ca fucking change.

It isn't JUST a case of natal women having to prove to the final decimal place beyond all possible doubt that a sufficient number of them have been actually harmed (and that number is always n+1 anyway) before they might be permitted a say in their own resources and boundaries.

There are the women with religious and cultural barriers of their own and of the family and community they live in.
There are the women with Autism and other disabilities who cannot cope with mixed sex spaces regardless of gender identity.
There are the women who have been raped and traumatised and will never be able to remove clothing knowing they are doing so with a stranger in the room that they perceive as male.
There are the women who just plain want dignity, privacy, the association of other natal females for this space or activity, who want to have somewhere to be in the fucking world for five minutes that is not all about them revolving around the never ending, ceaseless demands that they meet the needs of everyone else.

This is pure sexism on crack. And I don't see any difference in empathy or care or even a basic sisterhood and ability to care about natal female people in any of this, regardless of what statements are being made to degree of transition. This just proves, again and again, how subhuman natal women are considered to be and why it matters so much that we stand up at this point and fight for the right to single sex spaces which mean single sex spaces.

Other people's battles have nothing to do with the rights of natal females, and their resources are not communal property that are available as solution.

Hear hear!

There is no form of words that will ever make me feel ok with undressing in a space where males are allowed in, no matter how they identify.

Just the one Muslim cleric you spoke to, is it?

We really are down to no fucks given for how many natal women have problems and are excluded aren't we?

Fine. I'm done arguing about it. It's beyond apparent to me that there will never be any consideration or care for natal women in planning this, natal women can rely on absolutely nothing in terms of the services and apparent 'equality' and 'inclusiveness' being loudly and angrily demanded from them. If I wasn't convinced before I am now that the line is natal female and that's it.

Men are excluded from female spaces b cause male humans are known to be a threat to women.
Transwomen are male so what proof do you have that they are less dangerous than other men.
Statistics don't seem to be on your side.eg in England and Wales out of a population of 56.2 million,there were just under 900 murders in the last year, none of them were transwomen
However, two transwomen were convicted of murder, in both cases the murder of a woman.

Other people's battles have nothing to do with the rights of natal females, and their resources are not communal property that are available as solution.
Yep.

So, I see on the thread there is a form of forced conversion therapy for gay men in Iran. Are those forced to undergo this procedure then regarded as women. Or like eunuchs of old. Or is it a state of simply neutering the sexuality? I presume it is everything off.

I'm wondering because as there can be no offspring (if sperm not frozen and used with a woman's ovum to sire progeny), I imagine marriage in order to have a family wouldn't have much success.

Do Lesbians attract 'corrective conversion' in their way, I wonder?

Transwomen share the same patterns of criminality as other males , with the same much higher likelihood of being violent or sex offenders than women, eg within only the last few months, at least 7 transwomen have been convicted of either serious sex offences or being in possession of child sex abuse pornography.

Transwomen share the same patterns of criminality as other males

Transwomen is not a single entity. To do so categorises me alongside self ID.

Yeah, men never claim transgender status to access vulnerable women

And in the USA when Target made it's toilets all genders sexual assaults against women rocketed. In the UK [[https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html 90 % of sex attacks against women happen in unisex changing rooms]]

So whether or not it's tranwomen committing those assaults (and given the rate of offending in transgender women is no different than that of other men) then the only reasonable thing to do is to bar ALL males from women's safe spaces.

For those who are arguing against this, What is the acceptable level of sexual assault for women? One rape? 15? One per hundred users?

We really are down to no fucks given for how many natal women have problems and are excluded aren't we?

As opposed to the no fucks given for transsexuals?

It's all so easy isn't it. If I don't relinquish my rights, disregard dysphoria and dysmorphia as if there is a magic switch and sacrifice myself then it proves I don't care about women.

It does not.

It means I think a solution needs to be found that respects both women and transsexuals.

We are truly in the land of the sillies, aren't we, what with the ridiculous complicity in avoiding correct sex identifying words?

Where is this phrase from: 'A man's a man for a' that!'? Ok, answer is Robert Burns.

I think the op's question is interesting. It would be useful for women and girls to have a grasp of our rights based on our sex. And make sure the parallel faux legal advice doesn't succeed in making us doubt ourselves. I think men on a whole don't really give a toss. I also think some do get a kick out of inserting themselves in our spaces, especially if we don't want them to. However, it matters to our safety, privacy and dignity.

I also think some do get a kick out of inserting themselves in our spaces, especially if we don't want them to.

Indeed they do.

It means I think a solution needs to be found that respects both women and transsexuals.

There is no solution, black is not white, up is not down.

The issue, for women is thar, as you have identified amd classified yourself - women and transsexuals are two distinct groups.

Believe me, I completely understand that you don't want to use male toilets and why. This is why the majority of women would support a third space.

But if women are saying no, and many are either verbally or with their feet and choices, then it doesn't matter how many people say it should he OK.

As said earlier, I've used public toilets (for example) with transsexuals. I've been polite, I've smiled, I've made small talk in front of the mirror but I've always also felt anxious. Every time. Why should I be made to feel like that? Why is someone else's right to feel safe, especially a male's, more important than mine when I've walked through a door marked 'Women'?

The problem time after time is that women are saying, "We understand why you feel unsafe in the men's..." and offering alternatives yet I've not seen a single TS, TG, TRA, trans ally or whoever ever, ever extend the same level of understanding or concern to women in return.

That, to me, is as much a part of the problem as anything.

So its OK to put me in a position where I could get raped but I should take comfort that action will be taken against the offender?

🤔

And yet, every day around the world, mums are expected to send millions of young, vulnerable, defenceless boys from the age of 8 or 9 into these very same male loos for a pee and they seem to be able to emerge without being attacked.

It doesn't add up.

So, Blue or any other transsexual out there, can I ask, if there was a nice, fourth mixed sex additional space designed for people who would be happy to use a unisex space, (so parents out with their young opposite sex children, trans people, people who are not bothered about needing a single sex space) would you use that in preference?

Or would you still choose to use the female toilets, bearing in mind that women who are strangers cannot know whether or not you possess a GRC or what type of surgery you may or may not have had and some women may feel a need to exclude themselves from a female space because of your presence?

As opposed to the no fucks given for transsexuals?

Why is that a problem for women to solve? Campaign for third spaces.