What right to a single sex space do I have and how?

[Avocadowoman]

I saw a comment on another thread and it got me thinking. The comment was (broadly):

'A woman's right to a single sex space cannot co-exist with a transwoman's right to enter a woman's space based on gender identity'.

That is undoubtably true. If a transwoman enters a female space that space is no longer single sex.

However I am unsure what legal rights exist to give women the right to single sex spaces. The trouble seems to be that the law seems to assume that they are something someone will want to provide, and go from there.

Workplace regulations mean I have the right to a single sex toilet at work (but we all know how many workplaces ignore that in their transgender policies).

I haven't looked into prisons legislation.

But I think everything else is based on a providers right to provide a single sex service. If they choose to provide one great, if not I don't think I have the right to one.

If a provider chosses to open a female space to transgender women without a GRC, the people who are being discriminated against (legally) are, I think, not women, but men who would like to access that space but who are turned away and do not say they are transwomen. This makes it much harder to deal with through litigation, I think.

Clearly females are discriminated against in the same way by not being able to go into male spaces if those male spaces are open to transmen without a GRC, but that doesn't help me if what I want is a female space.

If my religion was one which forbade me to (for example) undress with men, then possibly the lack of provision of a single sex space may be discrimination due to my religion - but as it happens that is not my religion so that doesn't help me.

That means that where the single sex space is provided by the government (prison, hospital, school etc) it is the government we can petition to keep those spaces single sex. And that is useful because the government would not want to have a policy that is 'hypothetically discrimatory' if I can put it like that (eg discriminates against a woman who wants to enter a male single sex space, even though that is less likely to happen).

But sports, for example, therefore need to be taken up with each provider/governing body.

Am I missing something? Ot do women actually have very few 'rights to single sex spaces' compared to 'the right to provide a single sex space'?

But that is not the case. Males with a GRC can be excluded from females spaces and facilities/inheritances (and vice versa) as laid out in tbe Equality Act and the GRA itself.

Only in very specific circumstances and certainly not as a rule. Vast majority of the time then no, a transsexual cannot be excluded. The exemptions do not include toilets and changing rooms.

Can I ask you please to refrain from using the phrase "males with a GRC". Thank you.

@BlueLipstickRocks

True. But in most traditionally single sex spaces the inclusion of men discriminates against women.

And the exclusion of transsexuals discriminates against transsexuals. This is what the law says.

No one is suggesting that transsexuals should be excluded. They are saying that they need to use the facilities assigned to their biological sexual, regardless of how they identify.

Or a third unisex space if one is available.

To do otherwise is to discriminate against women.

It’s quite simple I’m surprised you don’t understand what posters are explaining to you.

biological sex

No one is suggesting that transsexuals should be excluded. They are saying that they need to use the facilities assigned to their biological sexual, regardless of how they identify.

So you aren't saying transsexuals should be excluded just that post op transsexuals should use male spaces ? We clearly have a different definition of "excluded".

And transsexualism is not an identity. Nor do I identify as being post op.

BlueLipstickRocks How would you like it to be administered so that a post op transsexual such as yourself could use the ladies facilities but the perv who just wants to look at women's bodies can't?

@BlueLipstickRocks

But that is not the case. Males with a GRC can be excluded from females spaces and facilities/inheritances (and vice versa) as laid out in tbe Equality Act and the GRA itself.

Only in very specific circumstances and certainly not as a rule. Vast majority of the time then no, a transsexual cannot be excluded. The exemptions do not include toilets and changing rooms.

Can I ask you please to refrain from using the phrase "males with a GRC". Thank you.

blue, this is why there is always going to be a conflict. You want women to stop identifying the problem. To many women, the motivation of the person concerned, is completely irrelevant. As is what they call themselves.

You want them to call certain males by different names, because you have a different belief to them.

Not believing in gender identity is now legally protected. And you still want to force compelled speech on the back of that.

This is why there will always be a conflict, and this is why women are saying no.

Does it not occur to you, that your determination to make women agree with you directly contributes to the reasons why they want their own spaces?

'Case by case basis' is for the type of service, not the individual trying to access the service.

So you aren't saying transsexuals should be excluded just that post op transsexuals should use male spaces ? We clearly have a different definition of "excluded".

I think you have this the wrong way round, male people are always excluded from female single sex spaces, what you are saying is that a special exception should be made for some people who are male. You are asking to be included into an area where you would not normally be allowed.

I totally get that the law was intended to permit a very small number, c.5000, transsexuals to use opposite sex facilities, & that that has been exploited by all manner of other people.

However, on a de facto basis, there's no way to distinguish admission rights between a transsexual like PP &, well, any random male asserting that they are a woman.

GRC doesn't help - you can't ask to see it.

Surgery doesn't help - you certainly can't ask for proof of that!

Standard ID such as passport, driving licence? No use - you can get the sex marker changed on request.

So no one operating a 'single sex but that means legal sex' service would have any basis to let in Blue, but refuse the random male claiming to identify as a woman who turns up 5 minutes later, as far as I can see.

We are just left with single sex exemptions, which can be used to exclude any male, regardless of GRC or surgery.

& these days, frankly, a lot of women's line is 'single sex by biology, no exceptions'. Which i think should be honoured tbh, however much it inconveniences the 5000 GRC holders.

Not believing in gender identity is now legally protected. And you still want to force compelled speech on the back of that.

Utter nonsense. It's called discussion. Have I ever objected to anyones right to hold such a belief?

@BlueLipstickRocks

Not believing in gender identity is now legally protected. And you still want to force compelled speech on the back of that.

Utter nonsense. It's called discussion. Have I ever objected to anyones right to hold such a belief?

You're constantly trying to get women to agree that they must make an exception for the certain cohort to which you belong!

Given it has the opposite affect, I would say it was counter-productive.

The law is a mess. UK government is keeping its head in the sand because of this. And there's been a lot of misrepresentation over the years by trans lobby groups.
As I understand it, what's been missing is court cases to establish how these conflicts play out. There are legal eagles watching and waiting for ways to test the law.

As we've seen in the case of the female prisoner, the prison service claimed they don't keep a record of males with a GRC and the judge asked them to go away and sort something out about this. So it will be interesting to see if they come back with some actual figures.

Unfortunately I think we will have to wait on various cases to either clarify and enforce the law or highlight deficiencies and gaps in the legislation and then build public support to pressure parliament to do something about it.

You're constantly trying to get women to agree that they must make an exception for the certain cohort to which you belong!

No I'm not. I'm expressing a view from the point of view if a transsexual. Show me a single post where I have said "you gave to..." and made demands. I have not done so.

@NonnyMouse1337

The law is a mess. UK government is keeping its head in the sand because of this. And there's been a lot of misrepresentation over the years by trans lobby groups. As I understand it, what's been missing is court cases to establish how these conflicts play out. There are legal eagles watching and waiting for ways to test the law.

As we've seen in the case of the female prisoner, the prison service claimed they don't keep a record of males with a GRC and the judge asked them to go away and sort something out about this. So it will be interesting to see if they come back with some actual figures.

Unfortunately I think we will have to wait on various cases to either clarify and enforce the law or highlight deficiencies and gaps in the legislation and then build public support to pressure parliament to do something about it.

I agree. And public support is absolutely key. Fortunately, support for sex segregation is gaining traction.

For most people, it hasn't really been on their radar, but now that is changing.

Utter nonsense. It's called discussion. Have I ever objected to anyones right to hold such a belief?

Glad to hear it but putting that aside how would you resolve the problem of maintaining spaces solely for females if some people of the opposite sex were to be allowed to use them?

@BlueLipstickRocks

You're constantly trying to get women to agree that they must make an exception for the certain cohort to which you belong!

No I'm not. I'm expressing a view from the point of view if a transsexual. Show me a single post where I have said "you gave to..." and made demands. I have not done so.

blue, I really don't have any intention of arguing with you. I understand that the backlash precipitated by Stonewall is affecting you.

In fact, I and many others predicted it, some years ago. It was inevitable.

But, as someone else has said, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, the genie back in the bottle.

In other words, you can't go back in time. It was still unfair, but fewer people knew about it.

Now they do.

Even a year or so ago, I was quite keen on a 'grandfather clause' - repeal the GRA, but allow existing holders, who had applied in good faith & it's not their fault they were sold a lie, the right to be in opposite sex spaces in almost all circumstances.

But I'm afraid I'm just fed up with it now. Single sex spaces where needed should be enforced on the basis of actual sex not legal fiction. Third spaces should be provided for use by whoever wants or needs them, & there's an end to it.

& I do appreciate that some GRC holders will be unhappy with that as a solution. But I'm fairly sure there are more than 5000 women in the UK who would support it.

I do appreciate that some GRC holders will be unhappy with that as a solution. But I'm fairly sure there are more than 5000 women in the UK who would support it.

So it's only 5000 people so that justifies taking away transsexuals rights?

That's not equality. Men don't get to dictate for women, I accept that. But women don't get to dictate for transsexuals.

So it's only 5000 people so that justifies taking away transsexuals rights?

So 5000 men get to take away the rights of over 30 million women and girls?

Blue, what is your view on third spaces? Could you give an example where a third space wouldn’t work?

So it's only 5000 people so that justifies taking away transsexuals rights?

Unfortunately , you never did have the automatic right to use these spaces, there was always a caveat.

Men don't get to dictate for women, I accept that. But women don't get to dictate for transsexuals.

Good, I am glad you accept that. So stop trying to dictate who should enter our spaces, where our boundaries should be or who gets to call themselves a woman.

Good, I am glad you accept that. So stop trying to dictate who should enter our spaces, where our boundaries should be or who gets to call themselves a woman.

Then stop trying to tell me I'm no different to any man.

The problem is even some GRC holders have not had surgery. I don't want any male without surgery in a single sex space. The law allows for that but the single-sex exceptions have to actually be invoked and often aren't. We need to make the argument that failure to invoke them is problematic, and there are legal arguments to that effect, but it would be a lot easier if organisations were forced to use these exceptions.

But I'm fairly sure there are more than 5000 women in the UK who would support it.

And, crucially, many, many more than 5000 women (and girls) who would hugely benefit from it,

Who would not then suffer the negative impact that even just 5000 biologically male transsexual people in women’s spaces could have on them across the course of a lifetime. Because if you think about the numbers potentially affected by just one person across the decades, it’s a lot higher than that 5000 figure.

And I would argue that there’s also the negative “existential” impact in women and girls knowing they’re not really entitled to genuinely single sex spaces, even if they don’t come across a biologically male transsexual or transgender person in those spaces.

We already learn from our infancy in myriad ways that we are and always have been the second sex. Which in and of itself has a deleterious affect on us as human beings. I would argue that knowing that we are not entitled in law to the dignity and privacy of single sex spaces actually compounds that original wound - where as a society we should be seeking redress for it, and to heal it as far as possible, so grievous it is.

That’s if as a society we truly care about social justice at all. If biologically male people care about lifting up the biologically female people they as a class have so brutally and determinedly kept down for so long.

(Btw, I think it was a post of mine that you reference in your OP, Avocadowoman, so I’m very pleased to see this thread!)