What right to a single sex space do I have and how?

[Avocadowoman]

I saw a comment on another thread and it got me thinking. The comment was (broadly):

'A woman's right to a single sex space cannot co-exist with a transwoman's right to enter a woman's space based on gender identity'.

That is undoubtably true. If a transwoman enters a female space that space is no longer single sex.

However I am unsure what legal rights exist to give women the right to single sex spaces. The trouble seems to be that the law seems to assume that they are something someone will want to provide, and go from there.

Workplace regulations mean I have the right to a single sex toilet at work (but we all know how many workplaces ignore that in their transgender policies).

I haven't looked into prisons legislation.

But I think everything else is based on a providers right to provide a single sex service. If they choose to provide one great, if not I don't think I have the right to one.

If a provider chosses to open a female space to transgender women without a GRC, the people who are being discriminated against (legally) are, I think, not women, but men who would like to access that space but who are turned away and do not say they are transwomen. This makes it much harder to deal with through litigation, I think.

Clearly females are discriminated against in the same way by not being able to go into male spaces if those male spaces are open to transmen without a GRC, but that doesn't help me if what I want is a female space.

If my religion was one which forbade me to (for example) undress with men, then possibly the lack of provision of a single sex space may be discrimination due to my religion - but as it happens that is not my religion so that doesn't help me.

That means that where the single sex space is provided by the government (prison, hospital, school etc) it is the government we can petition to keep those spaces single sex. And that is useful because the government would not want to have a policy that is 'hypothetically discrimatory' if I can put it like that (eg discriminates against a woman who wants to enter a male single sex space, even though that is less likely to happen).

But sports, for example, therefore need to be taken up with each provider/governing body.

Am I missing something? Ot do women actually have very few 'rights to single sex spaces' compared to 'the right to provide a single sex space'?

I think it must be quite a challenge to realise that women who seemed to be agreeing with you in the past may well have been simply being nice while hiding what they really felt. Or were at the time, like me, not thinking of the ramifications to others because I had never noticed the more vulnerable people or those who simply needed the privacy of a single sex space.

It was when I stopped working in corporations, and had to deal with an infant and an ageing mother that I realised that I, in my lack of exposure, had not thought of other people's needs in as much depth as I should have. I would have willingly, to be 'liberal', given away the rights of other women to be nice to males.

From a purely selfish point of view as well I am really behind third spaces. DS disability is likely to be in the mild camp, it doesn't fully 'settle' until.2. I could see third spaces being important in establishing his independence as I would be able to accompany him a little longer to develop his confidence and skills. I'd also feel he wouldn't be as vulnerable surrounded by families and a gender mix. If (as I hope) his disability proves my 'mild' enough then he may get judged on using disabled facilities, as it would be an invisible disability but he'd still benefit from things like a handrail next to the toilet.
Trans is just another reason to add to why we need third spaces in public, there is a need for them.

mousey

For some reason I can't open the PDF at the moment but
www.gov.uk/government/collections/gender-recognition-certificate-statistics

Nothing more recent than 2014 but has comprehensive info about GRCs and tribunals broken down by sex, refusals and deferments(which I expect is spousal veto for married late transitioners). If I recall it was about 10% of applicants were turned down. But I can't confirm at the mo as I can't open it.

Sorry that was in response to avocados request to back up the claim that a fair number of people are rejected. (It could have changed significantly since the last year provided though, bit sinister that yearly information, freely provided suddenly stops)

Thanks Hellebore.
I do wish people would put their weight behind it as I do think a genuine need had been identified.
It also annoys me when trans is positioned as 'most vulnerable group ever' as that ignores the many, many vulnerable males who have to navigate toxic masculinity and male spaces. The neuro divergent, those with learning difficulties, sexual orientation. Etc.
But their vulnerability lacks glamour.

Yes third spaces are the way forward.

@AdHominemNonSequitur thank you! I will take statistics over an interview with a judge any day :).

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/tribunal-statistics-quarterly-january-to-march-2021/tribunal-statistics-quarterly-january-to-march-2021#gender-recognition-certificates

I have found the latest version here.

It also comes with detailed tables here:

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/tribunal-statistics-quarterly-january-to-march-2021

(Main Tables has the excel file).

It shows total applications to March 2021 6771. Total refused 294 (about 4%). Total granted 6010.

Balance were withdrawn/error/interim

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

Thanks Hellebore. I do wish people would put their weight behind it as I do think a genuine need had been identified. It also annoys me when trans is positioned as 'most vulnerable group ever' as that ignores the many, many vulnerable males who have to navigate toxic masculinity and male spaces. The neuro divergent, those with learning difficulties, sexual orientation. Etc. But their vulnerability lacks glamour.

Or the big bucks and pharma behind it.

Male to female ratio 4226 granted to males, 1784 granted to females.

And VERY interesting that 'year of birth 1990 onwards' seems now to have disproportionately more applicants. It contains 2 decades worth of people compared to the stats for other years of birth which are by decade, but, since 2019, the average per birth year is the highest of all of them.

@Helleofabore

I do too Eresh.

And it has been said on other threads, it is not women’s fault that third spaces were never created, it is not women’s fault that male’s told other males it was right to enter into women’s single sex spaces.

It is now not up to women to fix the issue.

That is true. I guess I just was responding to those on the thread who had transitioned through surgery. However you are also right it still isn’t women’s job to sort the problem out for those people. Personally I still wouldn’t mind if someone who had surgery was in the woman’s toilets however at the same time - if it increases distress or harm to women, it’s not on and also it will always open the gateway to anyone being then able to access single spaces.

I guess it might be really powerful if trans women who had had surgery, stood up to trans woman who haven’t.

@Helleofabore yes there is a problem with the misdirection I think of the vulnerabilities of trans - based on extreme rhetoric towards women. When the vast majority of harassment and danger to trans women comes from men.

I heard a trans woman on the radio recently, talking about the awful abuse and harassment she’d suffered. They had written a book I think? Don’t remember the name. I was very sympathetic until right at the end they started ranting on about how so much of that abuse had happened in toilets and yet how awful it was that women wanted to keep them out of toilets…

I just thought… hey?! So men harassed you and abused you… which is awful… and yet it is women who are to blame and deserve the anger and woman who are discriminating? Something very wrong there. That trans woman was vulnerable, but to men, not women.

Yes, I think it beggars belief how men, as a class, have been allowed to abdicate responsibility and pass it on to women.

I agree Floisme. And the most vociferous voices are men.

The trans lobby saying that trans people aren't safe (from men) - why is it the answer to make women share their space (with men)? Why is it always women who have to "be nice" " be kind" or give up their hard fought rights? I'm sick of being called a terf just because I want to be safe. I want my own spaces. I don't want trans people to be unsafe, or prejudiced or unequal. The answer is surely a third space.