What right to a single sex space do I have and how?

[Avocadowoman]

I saw a comment on another thread and it got me thinking. The comment was (broadly):

'A woman's right to a single sex space cannot co-exist with a transwoman's right to enter a woman's space based on gender identity'.

That is undoubtably true. If a transwoman enters a female space that space is no longer single sex.

However I am unsure what legal rights exist to give women the right to single sex spaces. The trouble seems to be that the law seems to assume that they are something someone will want to provide, and go from there.

Workplace regulations mean I have the right to a single sex toilet at work (but we all know how many workplaces ignore that in their transgender policies).

I haven't looked into prisons legislation.

But I think everything else is based on a providers right to provide a single sex service. If they choose to provide one great, if not I don't think I have the right to one.

If a provider chosses to open a female space to transgender women without a GRC, the people who are being discriminated against (legally) are, I think, not women, but men who would like to access that space but who are turned away and do not say they are transwomen. This makes it much harder to deal with through litigation, I think.

Clearly females are discriminated against in the same way by not being able to go into male spaces if those male spaces are open to transmen without a GRC, but that doesn't help me if what I want is a female space.

If my religion was one which forbade me to (for example) undress with men, then possibly the lack of provision of a single sex space may be discrimination due to my religion - but as it happens that is not my religion so that doesn't help me.

That means that where the single sex space is provided by the government (prison, hospital, school etc) it is the government we can petition to keep those spaces single sex. And that is useful because the government would not want to have a policy that is 'hypothetically discrimatory' if I can put it like that (eg discriminates against a woman who wants to enter a male single sex space, even though that is less likely to happen).

But sports, for example, therefore need to be taken up with each provider/governing body.

Am I missing something? Ot do women actually have very few 'rights to single sex spaces' compared to 'the right to provide a single sex space'?

Transwomen is not a single entity. To do so categorises me alongside self ID.

So would you exclude some transwomen? What is your definition of a transwomen ?
Are you not questioning the existence of these other transwomen,,?

It means I think a solution needs to be found that respects both women and transsexuals.

I agree. The problem doesn't lie with either of those groups really. The problem lies with aggressive, violent men who make transwomen feel uncomfortable and in many cases, intimidated and fearful. Once again, men violence is the problem, but men have turned attention away from that and have us arguing amongst ourselves.

The hole in the current 'use the space where you feel most comfortable' ideology is the fact that any aggressive man can now simply go in and use those spaces too in order to continue his harassment. He cannot be questioned or challenged, and womens spaces become unsafe, for everyone.

I've said it from the start, the only places safe for women now, are the mens spaces. Suggest to your brother, father, partner that he use the ladies toilets or changing rooms and I guarantee he'll look at you in horror. The men who are a threat will be heading to the ladies.

@BlueLipstickRocks

We really are down to no fucks given for how many natal women have problems and are excluded aren't we?

As opposed to the no fucks given for transsexuals?

It's all so easy isn't it. If I don't relinquish my rights, disregard dysphoria and dysmorphia as if there is a magic switch and sacrifice myself then it proves I don't care about women.

It does not.

It means I think a solution needs to be found that respects both women and transsexuals.

That's a third space surely?

Women don’t consent to using a mixed sex space, unless that space is advertised as such. Therefore, when I enter the ladies room, it is entirely reasonable for me to expect only ladies/girls to be present.

Any male person using that space knows they shouldn’t really be there...

The problem is no one is enforcing the rules so they are wilfully being broken by males who then gleefully post footage of themselves in the ladies, online. Waves at Twitter.

'womens spaces become unsafe, for everyone.'

I propose an extremely radical solution. I don't suppose anyone has ever thought of it before. How about if women's spaces don't include the 'everyone' part? Women spaces become safer for women and girls (and the wee nippers under 8). Result: Women's spaces safer. The male bodied people can sort it out between themselves, instead of encroaching on our safety, privacy and dignity.

I propose an extremely radical solution. I don't suppose anyone has ever thought of it before. How about if women's spaces don't include the 'everyone' part? Women spaces become safer for women and girls (and the wee nippers under 8). Result: Women's spaces safer. The male bodied people can sort it out between themselves, instead of encroaching on our safety, privacy and dignity.

So who cares about the transsexuals, they're all just men anyway? Take all our rights away.... problem solved if its made to be someone else's problem.

kept going round in circles,

Of course it will. That’s why there’s no point discussing that. Not here anyway.

Ultimately a service can provide single sex spaces. Most places do have single sex spaces now. But a trans woman who genuinely considers herself to be a woman/ female can use the female space - just by walking in. Her belief that she is a woman is a protected belief. As is the belief that she is not. Same for trans men.

Third spaces won’t be seen as any sort of compromise because it’s still saying: ‘trans women are men. You can use the same space that men can use, but not one only women can use, because you are a man’. Although I’m sure lots/ most men and women would prefer proper floor to ceiling rooms instead of ‘cubicles’.

If a someone is going to go as far as hormones and surgery to address (genuine) sex dysphoria, they’re not going to be able to use the birth sex toilet. Making you (general GC you) a bit cross about it is going to be seen as the far lesser of two evils.

So who cares about the transsexuals, they're all just men anyway? Take all our rights away.... problem solved if its made to be someone else's problem.

Correct, it is not women’s problem to solve, leave us alone.

I'm sorry for any offence experienced by transsexuals, but the phrase "males with a GRC" or similar is essential for us to name the problem for women's rights in allowing access to female only spaces. It's not possible to change one's biological sex, even though a legal fiction has been allowed that "gender" is legal sex. "Males with a GRC" is a non judgemental factual statement about biological sex. It applies to male people with a GRC in ways that it doesn't to female people with a GRC.

You have said that you recognise that you are not female biologically Blue, that you are perfectly aware there are differences, so please do not seek to compel women's speech when we want to refer to those differences.

Women worldwide are facing an onslaught from male dominated international organisations, political parties and legislatures, police and judiciary who are even actively trying to erase any respect for women's needs or rights based on our distinct biological manifestation. Our discrete sex. Trying to coerce us into saying up is down without caring if we even think it is true. Without any reason, other than men's want/wish.

Male wishes seem to be powerful enough to change the world to women's detriment. I really think I need to give my full attention (and donations) to support those who are bravely standing up for women's human rights.

There are many issues I could be giving my support to, but for the moment this is important to my very safety, privacy and dignity.

How do accusations like this go down when directed at men? Or is it only women who are considered soft targets to berate?

So, Blue or any other transsexual out there, can I ask, if there was a nice, fourth mixed sex additional space designed for people who would be happy to use a unisex space, (so parents out with their young opposite sex children, trans people, people who are not bothered about needing a single sex space) would you use that in preference?

Waits ..

@BlueLipstickRocks

I propose an extremely radical solution. I don't suppose anyone has ever thought of it before. How about if women's spaces don't include the 'everyone' part? Women spaces become safer for women and girls (and the wee nippers under 8). Result: Women's spaces safer. The male bodied people can sort it out between themselves, instead of encroaching on our safety, privacy and dignity.

So who cares about the transsexuals, they're all just men anyway? Take all our rights away.... problem solved if its made to be someone else's problem.

Well why is it for women to sort out/accomodate?

You have said that you recognise that you are not female biologically Blue, that you are perfectly aware there are differences, so please do not seek to compel women's speech when we want to refer to those differences.

So politely asking for a phrase not to be used that causes offense to be us compeling speech?

You don't have a free pass to say what you like and when you cause offense use it against me. You don't get to decide for me that it's not offensive.

The phrase is offensive because it clearly decides that a transsexual is no different to any man.

None of us have the right to not be offended.

A transsexual is no different to any man when we are discussing single SEX spaces.

So politely asking for a phrase not to be used that causes offense to be us compeling speech?

If I politely decline for the reasons I and others have laid out, that's ok then? Great.

The phrase is offensive because it clearly decides that a transsexual is no different to any man.

No, because not "any man" has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and a GRC. That differentiates biologically male transsexuals from other biological males.

@Fieldofgreycorn

kept going round in circles,

Of course it will. That’s why there’s no point discussing that. Not here anyway.

Ultimately a service can provide single sex spaces. Most places do have single sex spaces now. But a trans woman who genuinely considers herself to be a woman/ female can use the female space - just by walking in. Her belief that she is a woman is a protected belief. As is the belief that she is not. Same for trans men.

Third spaces won’t be seen as any sort of compromise because it’s still saying: ‘trans women are men. You can use the same space that men can use, but not one only women can use, because you are a man’. Although I’m sure lots/ most men and women would prefer proper floor to ceiling rooms instead of ‘cubicles’.

If a someone is going to go as far as hormones and surgery to address (genuine) sex dysphoria, they’re not going to be able to use the birth sex toilet. Making you (general GC you) a bit cross about it is going to be seen as the far lesser of two evils.

No, I'm sorry. Women are not a validation tool, that male born individuals can utilise to validate their ideas of what a woman is.

It's extraordinary how many people think women's role is to do this. That we are genuinely here to provide a service that disadvantages us.

We're not. We are over half the electorate and the days of NoDebate are over.

I think the original discussion is very interesting, instructive and would really like hear what knowledgeable people have to say about it. I suspect we have gone down a burrow, so we need to pop back up. We may never be able to read those really interesting and informative posts.

I really want to know what right to a single sex space I have, and how!

Anyway back to the op. You are quite right, op, currently it's down to the service provider to balance the competing rights under the equality act.
I anticipate that will certainly change in terms of prisons and sport.

In other areas, the more women who are disadvantaged and say they can't use the service, the easier it is to determine the extent of the discrimination. Especially if an alternative service is offered. The phrase a proportionate means to a legitimate end is, to me, quite easy to justify.

It's not written anywhere that women need to be present in order to validate the feelings of the opposite sex. Alternative provision is the key.

Surely the equality act and GRC are clear on this. It is just Stonewall law that is confused and the companies they have been advising.

The current law, allows people with a GRC into single sex spaces, unless specifically excluded because it is a proportional means to achieve a legitimate aim. So people with a GRC can access the toilets of their legal sex..

It is not practical to ask for ID, but you can make it clear for whom it is and is not legal. If someone male enters without a GRC they have no right to be there.

It is legal for a transexual or transgender woman with a GRC to access female toilets.

It is not legal for a transexual or transgender woman with a GRC to apply for a job at a rape crisis center from which she had been specifically excluded.

It would not be legal for a transexual woman or a transgender woman without a GRC to access any female spaces (or at least it is not discriminatory to deny them access)

It is not legal for anyone who still has the legal sex of male to use female toilets or indeed any single sex services.

I am not sure if there is a requirement to provide single sex toilets though if they do, the law seems fairly clear. Legally male people are not allowed to access them. That is the social contract. It can't ever be more than a social contract anyway.

A transsexual is no different to any man when we are discussing single SEX spaces

You are entitled to hold that opinion but I profoundly disagree.

You don't think a lack of penis is somewhat of a difference?

"You don't think a lack of penis is somewhat of a difference?"

The trouble is, BlueLipstickRocks, as the TRAs are so fond of throwing back at us:
"Are we really going to check the contents of everyone's underpants??"

We will have to agree to disagree on that then.

I do not think a woman is the same as a man who’s had surgery to his genitals, I do not think I’m alone in this.

Here is a fact sheet, op, from FairPlay for Women briefly outlining how the single sex exceptions operate.

fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/EA2010_womensrights_-factsheet.pdf

And here is where they specifically address toilets.

fairplayforwomen.com/male-free-toilets-and-changing-rooms/