What right to a single sex space do I have and how?

[Avocadowoman]

I saw a comment on another thread and it got me thinking. The comment was (broadly):

'A woman's right to a single sex space cannot co-exist with a transwoman's right to enter a woman's space based on gender identity'.

That is undoubtably true. If a transwoman enters a female space that space is no longer single sex.

However I am unsure what legal rights exist to give women the right to single sex spaces. The trouble seems to be that the law seems to assume that they are something someone will want to provide, and go from there.

Workplace regulations mean I have the right to a single sex toilet at work (but we all know how many workplaces ignore that in their transgender policies).

I haven't looked into prisons legislation.

But I think everything else is based on a providers right to provide a single sex service. If they choose to provide one great, if not I don't think I have the right to one.

If a provider chosses to open a female space to transgender women without a GRC, the people who are being discriminated against (legally) are, I think, not women, but men who would like to access that space but who are turned away and do not say they are transwomen. This makes it much harder to deal with through litigation, I think.

Clearly females are discriminated against in the same way by not being able to go into male spaces if those male spaces are open to transmen without a GRC, but that doesn't help me if what I want is a female space.

If my religion was one which forbade me to (for example) undress with men, then possibly the lack of provision of a single sex space may be discrimination due to my religion - but as it happens that is not my religion so that doesn't help me.

That means that where the single sex space is provided by the government (prison, hospital, school etc) it is the government we can petition to keep those spaces single sex. And that is useful because the government would not want to have a policy that is 'hypothetically discrimatory' if I can put it like that (eg discriminates against a woman who wants to enter a male single sex space, even though that is less likely to happen).

But sports, for example, therefore need to be taken up with each provider/governing body.

Am I missing something? Ot do women actually have very few 'rights to single sex spaces' compared to 'the right to provide a single sex space'?

If I remember from my days as a cleaner, male toilets have the exact same cubicle configuration as the female toilets to accommodate any persons need to sit down to urinate.

I don’t understand what needs for those who are not female are not met by a male toilet cubicle.

No decent male would want/demand to use female spaces regardless of identity/mental illness.

So many brilliant posts.

Loving this, TheRebelle

hard disagree from me on this one, the morally right thing is for men to never, ever claim to be or try to pass themselves off as women, the group they’ve been oppressing for centuries. If you want to wear female style clothing, have a feminine name or hairstyle then more power to you, but try to use the law to enforce the lie that you’re a woman? No. Just no.

@CorvusPurpureus

I'm sorry Blue that your 'psychological disorders', as you term them (I'd agree, but suspect that's deletable phrasing, so to be clear I'm directly quoting you) have caused you such distress throughout your life.

But being psychologically distressed doesn't give any male the moral right to access female single sex spaces.

You continuously evade discussion of third spaces, despite saying that you'd prefer unisex ones anyway - which many women here are very willing to support as additional provision.

You are not female. Your entire argument is basically 'I belong to a particular subset of male people who i feel are entitled to demand access to your female spaces. Not those male people - let's all get together & say no to them! But you can't say no to me.'

It's forced teaming. & it's a hard no from me.

Seconding this too. And Datun and Eresh, agreeing with all you say.

With most of the posts from the marvellous women here, in fact.

You rock, wims.

Let’s imagine for a moment that third spaces were created. Let us also imagine that all women and girls started using those instead of the women’s facilities.

Which facilities would transwomen/men identifying as transexual now want to use? The now abandoned women’s or the third space used by all women and no men?

I suspect many would want the third spaces, using the women and girls as props or part of the facilities themselves; like furniture.

We are not part of the facilities on offer, we are as fully human as the men who want access to us.

It seems many people arguing that it is morally right to let some men be treated as so special they can come in, are struggling to fully comprehend women’s humanity.

Further to my post above asking about the statement re GRCs ('lots of people are turned down'), here is the link I was referring to:

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Tribunals-Journal-Edition-2-of-2019-1.pdf

Page 15 has the interview with the Chair of the Gender Recognition Panel. Two quotes are below:

As an initial group of judges sitting down to consider the 2004 Act we determined from the outset that our approach
would be a facilitative one. Although the law was set out in the Act we had control over our processes and we wanted
to give people every opportunity to show their entitlement to a GRC, even if that meant a number of chances to
provide the appropriate documents. Panel Directions are normally the follow-up to a letter from the Administrative
Team explaining to an applicant what documents they haven’t sent in that they need to produce.

.......

We rarely refuse applications, and when we do it’s generally due to a consistent lack of co-operation, the applicant
having been given a number of opportunities to provide the necessary documentary evidence. I probably deal with
about 200 cases a year-although some are previously adjourned applications and over some 14 years I think I have
refused three.

END QUOTES

So I don't think is true to say 'Lots of people are turned down'. By the time they actually get to the application, almost all are granted, from what the Judge says.

@Helleofabore

If I remember from my days as a cleaner, male toilets have the exact same cubicle configuration as the female toilets to accommodate any persons need to sit down to urinate.

I don’t understand what needs for those who are not female are not met by a male toilet cubicle.

Safety mostly. A transwoman passing as a cis woman entering the male bathrooms is not going to go well, perhaps less so if they don't quite "pass". Equally, a transman entering the women's toilets. It's the open prejudice displayed on these boards that makes trans people's lives super tough. Who would want to be trans by choice?

Mishy you talk of prejudice but ignore the prejudice towards women and their right to safety, privacy and dignity.

So basically women are expected to step and up take responsibility because a small number of men cannot be trusted to control themselves.

Safety mostly.

And women are not human shields, and should not have our needs pushed aside for the protection of people who are transitioned males. Just like we should not then accept the elderly men, the other vulnerable males into female toilets.

You have been told this before.

The needs of females, the safeguarding needs, the needs of traumatised females, are simply not to be ignored to alleviate the security issues for males.

Females use toilets for many different reasons to males, including those males who identify as women. I have yet to ever see any male who has sought access to the female toilets even acknowledge that.

There is the focus on 'just want to pee'. But this ignores great deal of how female toilets are used and reinforces the fact those saying that have no indepth knowledge about the female experience.

So, no. Females are not human shields to provide safety for others, they never were but as usual, were never asked.

It's the open prejudice displayed on these boards that makes trans people's lives super tough.

Oh yes.... I see....

No thought then for the women's lives that are made 'super tough' then by the elevation of the needs of another group above our needs.

No thought then for the women's lives that are made 'super tough' from the perpertual silencing of us trying to talk about our needs. Particularly from those who continually shame women for discussing it by labelling our discussions as prejudiced.

I think maybe some poster should perhaps get a better understanding on the history of women's rights and the oppression of women.

But then, maybe even then it will not be any use because after all, didn't you state that one of the founder's of Stonewall should get educated on the history of gay and lesbian people?

So, I guess decades of living experience of knowing what women need would be similarly discounted.

@Floisme

So basically women are expected to step and up take responsibility because a small number of men cannot be trusted to control themselves.

Yes Floisme

That seems to be what we are constantly told by the males who define themselves as feminists via intersectional feminism.... feminists are to mother the world and take responsibility for all the oppressed groups.

In fact, didn't UNWOMEN tell us that too?

Safety mostly. A transwoman passing as a cis woman entering the male bathrooms is not going to go well, perhaps less so if they don't quite "pass". Equally, a transman entering the women's toilets. It's the open prejudice displayed on these boards that makes trans people's lives super tough. Who would want to be trans by choice?

Stop it. Woman are not resources. Their spaces are only necessary because of their oppression at the hands of men. You don't get to introduce men (and it is any man) into them because they may bother you too.

Third spaces.

It's the open prejudice displayed on these boards that makes trans people's lives super tough.

There are women who are in coercive and violent relationships who would face repercussions if their partners found out they had used a mixed sex service.
Women only services exist for the safety of those women, and the privacy of the rest of us.

If other groups also need services, you have to campaign to get them, not take them away from us.

We are not part of the facilities on offer, we are as fully human as the men who want access to us.

It seems many people arguing that it is morally right to let some men be treated as so special they can come in, are struggling to fully comprehend women’s humanity.

YY.

Safety mostly. A transwoman passing as a cis woman entering the male bathrooms is not going to go well, perhaps less so if they don't quite "pass". Equally, a transman entering the women's toilets. It's the open prejudice displayed on these boards that makes trans people's lives super tough. Who would want to be trans by choice?

Do you know what makes women’s lives super tough? Being sexually assaulted in the street and being told it’s “just one of those things”, the open hostility from men and even other women when we do things we’re entitled to like take maternity leave and breastfeed in public, not having any public changing areas we can be certain we can undress in without some privileged class of males barging into and we can’t even ask them to leave or they’ll try to get us sacked from our jobs.

A transwoman passing as a cis woman entering the male bathrooms is not going to go well, perhaps less so if they don't quite "pass".

The answer the entire time was to educate the males that you all come in many forms. It was NEVER the answer for single sex spaces to be given to others. Not for safety, not for any reason.

It is really enlightening to see the lack of respect for women who say no.

It is really enlightening to see posters who when asked about the women who are being excluded, resort to 'what about me!'.

I guess I just do have sympathy for the very small number of men who have gone through extensive surgery, and now have any man who wants to call himself Mary hustle in. That group are pretty vulnerable (those who have gone through surgery).

I get the arguments for keeping single sex spaces, and that women are not human shields. I just think this is one huge mess by a strange experiment of ‘there is no such thing as biological sex’ group - the trans lobby.

I have sympathy too, and I advocate third spaces.

I do too Eresh.

And it has been said on other threads, it is not women’s fault that third spaces were never created, it is not women’s fault that male’s told other males it was right to enter into women’s single sex spaces.

It is now not up to women to fix the issue.

Yes indeed. I'm also not without sympathy, which I can have at exactly the same time as recognising entitlement when I see it.

I honestly don't think that certain people realise that they genuinely think women are supposed to be support humans. I know we use the term support humans, or service humans, but that is actually how women are viewed by an extraordinary number of people.

For so long they have simply expected women to accommodate them, it genuinely doesn't compute when they stop.

It's quite obvious in that when women say no, that's not enough. Women aren't supposed to say no. It's certainly not a sufficient reason. they must be persuaded, told, and in many cases, threatened.

'No' isn't heard.

We have to face up to the fact that it is not just males who tell (have told) other males they have the right to enter into women's spaces.

Women do it too. There are many many women who will happily tell a transwomen she is welcome to enter the ladies. We know (some female MPs I am looking at you) that for some that extends to sports and prisons. We can speculate why, we can disagree, but we can't pretend that it isn't happening.

And we don't have a mechanism for sorting this out! Because we have very few laws that say spaces must be single sex - we rely on a myriad of 'service providers' to want to provide that space for us.

I must admit I previously would have been among them.
Which is why discourse is so important, it was only after JK's essay that I even considered it to be harmful to vulnerable women.
And the reason I looked into it was because on every other subject she's absolutely liberal in the position she takes.
Still, I didn't decide on my position till I'd researched it myself as well. I think a lot of the time it's just a lack of awareness, and that's because identity politics means people often automatically take a position without considering it themselves.
And some of the time it's privilege with a lack of empathy.
And some of the time it's self preservation.
On the whole I think women as a class are only now becoming aware. The Olympics will be a real moment in time for obvious reasons.

This is very true avocadowoman.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

I must admit I previously would have been among them. Which is why discourse is so important, it was only after JK's essay that I even considered it to be harmful to vulnerable women. And the reason I looked into it was because on every other subject she's absolutely liberal in the position she takes. Still, I didn't decide on my position till I'd researched it myself as well. I think a lot of the time it's just a lack of awareness, and that's because identity politics means people often automatically take a position without considering it themselves. And some of the time it's privilege with a lack of empathy. And some of the time it's self preservation. On the whole I think women as a class are only now becoming aware. The Olympics will be a real moment in time for obvious reasons.

Yes, this.

Raising awareness is very important. And also, the fact that so many children are being taught gender ideology.

More people are definitely becoming aware, because it is actually affecting them, it's not just a thought experiment.

And yes, I wonder what will happen in the Olympics.