What right to a single sex space do I have and how?

[Avocadowoman]

I saw a comment on another thread and it got me thinking. The comment was (broadly):

'A woman's right to a single sex space cannot co-exist with a transwoman's right to enter a woman's space based on gender identity'.

That is undoubtably true. If a transwoman enters a female space that space is no longer single sex.

However I am unsure what legal rights exist to give women the right to single sex spaces. The trouble seems to be that the law seems to assume that they are something someone will want to provide, and go from there.

Workplace regulations mean I have the right to a single sex toilet at work (but we all know how many workplaces ignore that in their transgender policies).

I haven't looked into prisons legislation.

But I think everything else is based on a providers right to provide a single sex service. If they choose to provide one great, if not I don't think I have the right to one.

If a provider chosses to open a female space to transgender women without a GRC, the people who are being discriminated against (legally) are, I think, not women, but men who would like to access that space but who are turned away and do not say they are transwomen. This makes it much harder to deal with through litigation, I think.

Clearly females are discriminated against in the same way by not being able to go into male spaces if those male spaces are open to transmen without a GRC, but that doesn't help me if what I want is a female space.

If my religion was one which forbade me to (for example) undress with men, then possibly the lack of provision of a single sex space may be discrimination due to my religion - but as it happens that is not my religion so that doesn't help me.

That means that where the single sex space is provided by the government (prison, hospital, school etc) it is the government we can petition to keep those spaces single sex. And that is useful because the government would not want to have a policy that is 'hypothetically discrimatory' if I can put it like that (eg discriminates against a woman who wants to enter a male single sex space, even though that is less likely to happen).

But sports, for example, therefore need to be taken up with each provider/governing body.

Am I missing something? Ot do women actually have very few 'rights to single sex spaces' compared to 'the right to provide a single sex space'?

Or... Perhaps Mishi and Blue could come on and tell us all that we're wrong and should allow xyz specific definition of male bodied people into women's single sex spaces then refuse to engage with the questions which expose why their views are not fair, workable or often legal.

And we could all get worked up and upset and wonder why this keeps happening when we're convinced we have perfectly valid points and noone can tell us why we're wrong, just that we are wrong!

It's how I imagine gas-lighting makes you feel.

But that's illegal. You ought to report that.

I would like to see stats and news articles of transwomen being attached in men's toilets. It would be great if there were also stats on gay or disabled men being attached or men from an ethnic / racial minority.
Since transgender identity is a protected category under hate crime legislation (unlike sex) - there should be some way of pulling up fairly representative stats.

*attacked even

Transmen must be very vulnerable in the men's. The "use single sex spaces according to gender" makes transmen less safe. What do those advocating that policy say about that?

Of course arguably it is their "choice" to share with the opposite sex. The reverse isn't the case - there's no consent.

Given all the usual scaremongering over trans people in bathrooms/changing rooms is kicking off. I'd just like to point out there's peer reviewed evidence on this. In the US no increase in assault, voyerism, etc was found from trans inclusive policies. Police were asked in all states where trans people get to use the right spaces - none were able to find a single incident after those inclusive laws were passed... It's cisgender men that are the problem, they don't seem to need to pretend to be trans (Maybe half a dozen incidents worldwide where they have). I'm part of that group - cisgender men - which is far from a minority - but nothing proposed to stop these assaults would even slightly inconvenience me. It won't even slightly inconvenience the cisgender men who assault women, the one or two out of millions () of men who are prone to assault women by "pretending" to be trans, just won't pretend to be trans that day. What's proposed (Bathroom laws against trans people), will serve to drive them out of public life. I always find that very weird.
link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs13178-018-0335-z

• Two examples, a third unknown.

Again rare exceptions. And the offenders are and should be being dealt with.

The rest is just fear mongering against a minority group.*

I believe it was Katy Montgomery who was discussing on the internet sitting in toilets listening to women pee.

But I see mishy that you have no idea about safeguarding and how that works, but I also see you don't give a crap about some religions where they are unable to share spaces we with the opposite sex. You are not inclusive at all.

Blue I have genuine sympathy for you, you have been thrown under a bus and women are now extremely angry with the recent onslaught and are pushing back very hard which may or may not end up affecting you.

We're not in the US.
In the UK there. Have been assault in prison and little girls raped in toilets.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

We're not in the US. In the UK there. Have been assault in prison and little girls raped in toilets.

Interesting how you have to say "girls", when we both know it was one incident of a trans woman - not a man "pretending" - who is a pedophile in Scotland. Only incident, ever, in the UK. What difference do you think laws stopping her from using the loo would have made? Cisgender men, presenting as men, have committed hundreds of horrifying attacks against women and girls in this country in single sex loos. Tiny compared to the tens of thousands of horrifying attacks against women and girls in their own homes, but still way too many.

Please tell me, what difference will it make to a predatory pedophile? A "law" saying no trans women allowed in the loo?

80 odd million people in the US, and 700 odd million people worldwide live in countries with self ID for trans people. Not one statistic on increase in voyerism, assault, nothing. For the very obvious reason - those laws don't enable criminals.

I'm afraid I haven't had time to read all five pages of this thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating a previously-asked question.

What's the legal and the real-life situation of a group or organisation that is holding a lesbian-only event? (I say real-life because I think we'll all recognise that what happens on the ground can be very different from the strictly legal situation)

I am starting to plan a big lesbian party for a friend's birthday early next year. There'll be a live band and then a DJ and the venue can take 250 people (Covid allowing, obviously). There'll be 150+ women who'll be personally invited, but we may also consider quietly promoting it to friends of friends on social media too. What right do we have on the night to turn away any male-sexed people who turn up? This will be a private event, so I assume that as the person who organised it I can say no to anyone.

What if we were to run it as a commercial lesbian-only event with tickets? Are we allowed to define what a lesbian is (same-sex attracted adult human female) and refuse anyone who doesn't appear to fit that description? What if someone with a beard turns up, swears they're a lesbian and that they have a GRC — but won't show it to us because it's discriminatory of us to ask for it?

The case I am thinking of was where a social worker waited outside while the girl was assaulted in the toilet.
The obvious solution is they should not have been there.
And one rape is one too many. You can't effectively police who's good trans and who's pretending. just like men. O don't see Dh clamouring to get in the ladies because he's a good guy. Has a crb too. Doesn't mean we let him into women's spaces though.

There is a never ending list, constantly being added to, of transwomen committing sex offences in women's toilets, on porn hub. Some of them in full view of women and children.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

The case I am thinking of was where a social worker waited outside while the girl was assaulted in the toilet. The obvious solution is they should not have been there. And one rape is one too many. You can't effectively police who's good trans and who's pretending. just like men. O don't see Dh clamouring to get in the ladies because he's a good guy. Has a crb too. Doesn't mean we let him into women's spaces though.

What difference would a law saying no trans women in loos make to predatory pedophiles? The vast majority of which are cisgender men. What difference would it make to a cisgender male pedophile, or a trans woman pedophile, or a cisgender woman pedophile?

I'd say in all cases zero effect, they intend to break the law, commit a crime that's acknowledged to be the most heinous crime anyone can commit. Save child murder. A law banning trans women wouldn't even stop trans pedophiles, the current laws don't stop predatory male pedophiles at all. We just need them to be caught as soon as possible, ideally before they offend from their online activity.

All it does is serve to equate trans people with pedophiles, demonise an already demonised minority, and distract from the real problem - cisgender men who are the vast majority of male pedophiles.

@Datun

There is a never ending list, constantly being added to, of transwomen committing sex offences in women's toilets, on porn hub. Some of them in full view of women and children.

There's not a single statistic of increased voyerism, assault, anything, in countries with Self ID for trans people. How does your assertion and probably pages of anecdotes, match with this reality? I hate to tell you this, but "porn hub" isn't real life. I find it quite concerning the number of gender critical people who happily admit to searching for "sissy hypno porn" or worse, on the dark side of the internet.

The difference is that a man or woman seeing a man entering a female space should be able to challenge them. We don't know how many people have been prevented from crimes by social contracts because crimes that don't happen aren't recorded.
And the assumption that they are not 'real' trans, only sexual predators cannot be proved because the bandwidth of trans is now meaningless.
The issue is that allowing any males in hands a loophole to predators and they will exploit it.

There's not a single statistic of increased voyerism, assault, anything, in countries with Self ID for trans people. How does your assertion and probably pages of anecdotes, match with this reality? I hate to tell you this, but "porn hub" isn't real life. I find it quite concerning the number of gender critical people who happily admit to searching for "sissy hypno porn" or worse, on the dark side of the internet.

Of course there are statistics. There is a massive list on Twitter! Thank you for alerting people to the title of the genre.

And in answer to your question about predatory men, women can challenge men if they are occupying a single sex space. They can't if they're not.

would check out what you are saying. As the problem is this is fear mongering, and it just doesnt happen. In the rare occasion it could, then action is taken against the offender.

So a transwoman can use the men's because if their safety fears turned out to be real then action could be taken agaibst the offender.

“ It happens and remarkably common. I have been attacked multiple times.”

BluelipstickRocks I’m sorry to hear that.
You said you use the Ladies toilets, not the Gents. Do you mean you are attacked in the Ladies toilets, or elsewhere?

There appear to be no reported cases of transwomen attacked in the Gents toilets.
There are reports of men and trans women - with and without GRCs - causing problems in the Ladies toilets.

Toilets aside, Trans women are attacked. So are Gay, Lesbian and Biisexual people. So are Women.

The question is: which group is genuinely most at risk and where does that risk occur?

If the Gents toilets is unsafe, that issue needs to be addressed instead of creating an unsafe situation in the Ladies.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

The difference is that a man or woman seeing a man entering a female space should be able to challenge them. We don't know how many people have been prevented from crimes by social contracts because crimes that don't happen aren't recorded. And the assumption that they are not 'real' trans, only sexual predators cannot be proved because the bandwidth of trans is now meaningless. The issue is that allowing any males in hands a loophole to predators and they will exploit it.

So why are there zero statistics of increased assault, even, in women's spaces in countries with Self ID? 6 years in Ireland, 10 in Argentina, 5 in Canada, multiple US states like New York have had it for a decade too. If what you say is true then we'd see the stats?

"The issue is that allowing any males in hands a loophole to predators and they will exploit it."
-- Not evidenced at all, predators are already not bothered about laws. A new one targeting trans women is hardly likely to bother them either.

Whereas bathroom laws, and fears, have been used to justify regressive policies that hurt women over and over. I just noticed this from Patricia Arquette to an ex-GC woman.
twitter.com/PattyArquette/status/1404278484680069127

So a transwoman can use the men's because if their safety fears turned out to be real then action could be taken agaibst the offender.

So its OK to put me in a position where I could get raped but I should take comfort that action will be taken against the offender?

There's not a single statistic of increased voyerism, assault, anything, in countries with Self ID for trans people. How does your assertion and probably pages of anecdotes, match with this reality? I hate to tell you this, but "porn hub" isn't real life. I find it quite concerning the number of gender critical people who happily admit to searching for "sissy hypno porn" or worse, on the dark side of the internet.

When data is not being collected then it is very easy to say nothing to see here. In Norway there has just recently been a 300% increase in 'female " sex offending. Coincidence that this appalling rise coincided with self id?
Plenty of statistics around to show transwomen are just as likely to be violent and or sex offenders as any other male, do why would we allow this subset of the male sex into spaces where women are vulnerable?

*You said you use the Ladies toilets, not the Gents. Do you mean you are attacked in the Ladies toilets, or elsewhere?

There appear to be no reported cases of transwomen attacked in the Gents toilets.
There are reports of men and trans women - with and without GRCs - causing problems in the Ladies toilets.*

I've been verbally abuse and threatened numerous times, had 2 physical assaults and 1 sexual assault in the men's.

The assumption in the men's is that if a trans person is in a male spaces they are pre op. That makes someone a massive target. Homophobic men seek pre op trans to satisfy homosecual urges whilst claiming they are still heterosexual.

How can data tell us anything when men's crimes are being recorded as women's?
Of course then putting aside that not all assaults are reported.

No one seems to care by allowing post operative transexuals into women's spaces you're creating a urinary leash for religious women and trauma victims.

Third spaces. Every time. Why aren't they being considered?