What right to a single sex space do I have and how?

[Avocadowoman]

I saw a comment on another thread and it got me thinking. The comment was (broadly):

'A woman's right to a single sex space cannot co-exist with a transwoman's right to enter a woman's space based on gender identity'.

That is undoubtably true. If a transwoman enters a female space that space is no longer single sex.

However I am unsure what legal rights exist to give women the right to single sex spaces. The trouble seems to be that the law seems to assume that they are something someone will want to provide, and go from there.

Workplace regulations mean I have the right to a single sex toilet at work (but we all know how many workplaces ignore that in their transgender policies).

I haven't looked into prisons legislation.

But I think everything else is based on a providers right to provide a single sex service. If they choose to provide one great, if not I don't think I have the right to one.

If a provider chosses to open a female space to transgender women without a GRC, the people who are being discriminated against (legally) are, I think, not women, but men who would like to access that space but who are turned away and do not say they are transwomen. This makes it much harder to deal with through litigation, I think.

Clearly females are discriminated against in the same way by not being able to go into male spaces if those male spaces are open to transmen without a GRC, but that doesn't help me if what I want is a female space.

If my religion was one which forbade me to (for example) undress with men, then possibly the lack of provision of a single sex space may be discrimination due to my religion - but as it happens that is not my religion so that doesn't help me.

That means that where the single sex space is provided by the government (prison, hospital, school etc) it is the government we can petition to keep those spaces single sex. And that is useful because the government would not want to have a policy that is 'hypothetically discrimatory' if I can put it like that (eg discriminates against a woman who wants to enter a male single sex space, even though that is less likely to happen).

But sports, for example, therefore need to be taken up with each provider/governing body.

Am I missing something? Ot do women actually have very few 'rights to single sex spaces' compared to 'the right to provide a single sex space'?

@BlueLipstickRocks

I do appreciate that some GRC holders will be unhappy with that as a solution. But I'm fairly sure there are more than 5000 women in the UK who would support it.

So it's only 5000 people so that justifies taking away transsexuals rights?

That's not equality. Men don't get to dictate for women, I accept that. But women don't get to dictate for transsexuals.

Are transsexuals only male-born? Or are some female born? Genuine question. Is it fewer than 5000 GRC holders wanting to use facilities intended for biological women?

@BlueLipstickRocks

*By that argument you are presumably claiming that in every situation that is the case therefore you feel the law allows you to exclude transsexuals from every woman's space?

Yes.*

Thats not what the law says. Exceptions are just that - exceptions. They are not the norm.

The question you asked was does it 'allow' for that. The answer is yes, it does allow for it when it is felt to be in the best interests of women.

It's a tough one. I, like many women, have never had an issue with transsexuals. Obviously we could never know whether someone was post op or not but we were prepared to go along with it and 'pretend'.

This is partly why many TS feel they pass - because women generally just don't make a fuss unless we feel it's necessary.

It has now become necessary.

For many years, i was one of those who would smile and make small talk at the mirror with a stranger be it a woman or a man clearly trying to pass as a woman. Having seen, read about and experienced the vitriol directed at women, i don't see why i should quite honestly.

And this is where SW etc have shown their misogyny. By insisting that we accept a man in a dress who just wants to wank over the sound of a woman pissing and stick used tampons up his arse as a woman, they have damaged the situation for women and TS alike.

Because I've never known any woman stick someone else's tampon up their arse or wank over the sound of another woman pissing and i doubt any genuine post op transsexuals have done that either.

This is the problem where your belief in your gender identity is at odds with women's needs for female only spaces. How do we include you and yet exclude others. What is the solution? In your opinion, your exclusion denies your gender identity and yet to include you, denies women the right to a single sex service. Where do we go from here?

This is the problem where your belief in your gender identity is at odds with women's needs for female only spaces

Being transsexual is not about a belief in a gender identity. That is profoundly misunderstanding what it means to be TS and diminishes dysphoria and dysmorphia.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Good, I am glad you accept that. So stop trying to dictate who should enter our spaces, where our boundaries should be or who gets to call themselves a woman.

Then stop trying to tell me I'm no different to any man.

I can’t dictate to you how your feel about yourself. But neither can you control how I see you.

When it comes to my wish for, what I in fact believe to be my human right (whether enshrined in law or not) to, some spaces which are exclusively female, then I don’t see you as qualitatively different from other biologically male people, aka men. That is my truth, my reality.

You say not being able to access women only spaces would cause you great distress. I say you being able to access women only spaces causes me great distress.

You apparently don’t care about my distress, and yet you expect me to care about yours. Why?

So stop trying to dictate who should enter our spaces, where our boundaries should be or who gets to call themselves a woman.

Well said, tibtom.

There was a transsexual used to go to the pub I went to. This person made the women uncomfortable so we started drinking elsewhere, there were no women left so the men followed us to continue chatting us up. Original pub is now converted into a block of flats. This is what happens in the real world, women might not say anything but they change their behaviour which negatively affects them. Problem is certain people don't care that women need to adjust and are negatively impacted because women are a sub species. That message is coming across loud and clear and that confirms some people's biology more than anything else

Being transsexual is not about a belief in a gender identity. That is profoundly misunderstanding what it means to be TS and diminishes dysphoria and dysmorphia.

My apologies for not properly understanding your situation and the trauma this has caused you. I just presumed that you also have a gender identity and expression that do not conform to your sex class.
However, my question remains " Where do we go from here?"

Wtfdoipick

The beginning of that anecdote made me instantly think there's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's Elvis 🤣

This needs to be a campaign in and of itself, IMO. A campaign to enshrine in law women’s and girls’ active right to single sex spaces and services. Not exceptions tacked on, but as a constant. As a human rights issue.

Wish I had the wherewithal to start it myself but I really don’t!

@Datun

Wtfdoipick

The beginning of that anecdote made me instantly think there's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's Elvis 🤣

So now I’ve got that playing in my head for the rest of the day, thanks Datun! 🤣

There are infinitely worse earworms, mind.

I think this is a really interesting thread - good to see the law laid out clearly.

My question is to @TalkingtoLangClegintheDark why should women worry about post-op transexual people in their toilets? People ask me this all the time - is it just a theoretical argument that female spaces are female and you can't actually change sex, or is there a safety or other reason?

My question to @BlueLipstickRocks is what is your objection to a third space? I totally get that you might not want or might feel unsafe in a male toilet, but I also agree that women (people born female) shouldn't be obliged to provide safety or comfort to you at their own expense. What would be wrong with a third space?

(and thank you for the stats - I really didn't know that there are only 5000 post-op transsexual people in this country. Gosh. )

So now I’ve got that playing in my head for the rest of the day, thanks Datun! 🤣

That's a definite set of lyrics in there, right down to the sad, empty pub being paved over for a block of flats.

Datun They are very nice flats and it was quite a few years ago it closed but its interesting how just 1 person changed everything. I bet they'd say no one had an issue though.

*You say not being able to access women only spaces would cause you great distress. I say you being able to access women only spaces causes me great distress.

You apparently don’t care about my distress, and yet you expect me to care about yours. Why?*

That same question goes both ways. You don't care about mine and expect me to sacrifice myself and relinquish my legal protection because some women object.

Blue, I’ve read your posts with genuine sympathy. I understand you don’t want to use Men’s Facilities for a number of reasons. But isn’t the obvious answer to this to have third spaces? Those third spaces wouldn’t ‘out’ you (apologies if that’s the wrong word) because they would be open to all who chose to use them.

Those third spaces would then solve the problem: women could retain their single sex space and you wouldn’t have to use the men’s space. Ignoring all my personal feelings on this topic, isn’t that the logical answer?

One does not need a GRC to access single sex spaces. The GRC is irrelevant. So confronting a transwoman or who you suspect may be one in a toilet is not going to be a valid action and could mean a discrimination action against yourself.

Exceptions are allowed where a legitimate purpose.

Per EA Act: Exceptions allowing services to be provided only to women (or only to men)

The first two relevant exceptions (Schedule 3, Paragraphs 26 and 27) allow service providers to provide separate services for men and women, or to provide services to only men or only women in certain circumstances. The symmetrical nature of the ban on sex discrimination means without these exceptions it would be illegal, for example, to hold women-only sessions at a leisure centre or a new fathers’ support group at a nursery.177

Exception allowing single sex services to discriminate because of gender re-assignment

The third exception (Schedule 3, paragraph 28) allows providers of separate or single-sex services to provide a different service to, or to exclude, someone who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. This includes those who have a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), as well as someone who does not have a GRC but otherwise meets the definition under the Equality Act 2010.

Application of this exception must be objectively justified as a means of achieving a legitimate aim. An example given in the explanatory notes to the Act is that of a group counselling service for female victims of sexual assault where the organisers could exclude a woman with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if they judge that clients would be unlikely to attend the session if she was there.

Schedule 23, paragraph 3 of the Equality Act 2010 also allows a service provider to exclude a person from dormitories or other shared sleeping accommodation, and to refuse services connected to providing this accommodation on grounds of sex or gender reassignment. As with paragraph 28 and other exceptions under the Equality Act, such exclusion must be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmwomeq/1470/147010.htm

Blue I used to work with a woman like you, post op transsexual who used the ladies loos at work, and I had no problem at all with her or with that situation.

I don't have an issue with a small number of post op transsexuals in the ladies. I acknowledge and accept that other woman have different boundaries on this, but I'm talking about me.

I do however have a problem with the situation which seems to have been created under 'kind' women's noses where suddenly any man who fancies it cam declare himself a woman and enter our changing rooms, loos, refuges etc.

Please can you tell us your suggestion about how to actually administer what presumably is your ideal scenario where genuine transsexuals can try on a dress in the appropriate changing room but Joe bloggs who wants to sit in a cubicle wanking to the thought of all the naked women around him trying on bras? Or Bob Jones who wants to hang around in the ladies loo and see knickers round ankles or whatever else he wants to do.
Or another man who wants to get slowly changed in the swimming pool next to my naked 7 yr old?

What is your solution?

Because a lot of women aren't happy that we can't challenge the above without being called bigots.

I don't want to challenge you being discrete in a cubicle in the corner of the women's changing room, you're welcome. But not everyone is, so how can we distinguish?

Amazing, isn't it. How many people don't want women to have their own space. Extraordinary stuff.

@BreatheAndFocus

Blue, I’ve read your posts with genuine sympathy. I understand you don’t want to use Men’s Facilities for a number of reasons. But isn’t the obvious answer to this to have third spaces? Those third spaces wouldn’t ‘out’ you (apologies if that’s the wrong word) because they would be open to all who chose to use them.

Those third spaces would then solve the problem: women could retain their single sex space and you wouldn’t have to use the men’s space. Ignoring all my personal feelings on this topic, isn’t that the logical answer?

That is a massive cost for a minority, and to force them into disabled is unfair on disabled people who need to access it.

Businesses cant afford such a third space, and under the EA act at present, there is no need for them to provide the same.

For the small minority of trans people, letting them do their business and taking action against anyone who misbehaves is the way forward - and has been operating in that way for the last 11 years with very few incidents. Trans people are just not interested in anything in the bathroom then others also wish to do. Men just dont pretend to be trans to go into the toilets and offend! It would be easier to pretend to be a cleaner!

Gender Critical people define sex as - Small/Large Gametes. Or when challenged "The pathways to produce those"/Body "organised" to produce them. (From what I've seen, do correct me if wrong)

There are no spaces that are "single sex" by that defn, and I hope we never live in a dystopia so severe that there are such spaces. The law doesn't define "sex" in that way. And thank gawd the government doesn't mandate the tests necessary to decide what "sex" marker you should have on your official "GC ID" to gain entry to spaces.

Incidentally it's really disappointing to see yet more misinformation about the GRA on here. The wonderful Ann Sinnott and her GC donors paid £100,000 for the high court judgement pointing out the idea trans people only get access to spaces if they have a GRC - is "wrong in law" and "absurd".

Amazing, isn't it. How many people don't want women to have their own space. Extraordinary stuff.

Other women may hold different opinions to you. Why should they be criticised for doing so?

The last time we had this conversation and kept going round in circles, my questions remained unanswered. I'm posting them again. Let's see if any of those who are against women's rights to single-sex spaces from all males can answer them.

How am I meant to objectively tell the difference between a transsexual and a transvestite or autogynephilic male?

How am I meant to objectively tell the difference between a pre-op transsexual and a post-op transsexual?

How am I meant to objectively tell the difference between a transsexual with a GRC and a transsexual without a GRC?

Original thread

@MapGirlExtraordinaire

Blue I used to work with a woman like you, post op transsexual who used the ladies loos at work, and I had no problem at all with her or with that situation.

I don't have an issue with a small number of post op transsexuals in the ladies. I acknowledge and accept that other woman have different boundaries on this, but I'm talking about me.

I do however have a problem with the situation which seems to have been created under 'kind' women's noses where suddenly any man who fancies it cam declare himself a woman and enter our changing rooms, loos, refuges etc.

Please can you tell us your suggestion about how to actually administer what presumably is your ideal scenario where genuine transsexuals can try on a dress in the appropriate changing room but Joe bloggs who wants to sit in a cubicle wanking to the thought of all the naked women around him trying on bras? Or Bob Jones who wants to hang around in the ladies loo and see knickers round ankles or whatever else he wants to do.
Or another man who wants to get slowly changed in the swimming pool next to my naked 7 yr old?

What is your solution?

Because a lot of women aren't happy that we can't challenge the above without being called bigots.

I don't want to challenge you being discrete in a cubicle in the corner of the women's changing room, you're welcome. But not everyone is, so how can we distinguish?

I would check out what you are saying. As the problem is this is fear mongering, and it just doesnt happen. In the rare occasion it could, then action is taken against the offender.

What about a lesbian being in the female toilets? Should they be stopped in case they fancy someone?

This is why what you are saying is bigotry. It's being blown up as an issue that really just isnt there, and hasnt been a problem in the 11 years the EA 2010 act has been in place.

Take action against any offender who is doing the wrong thing - not discriminate against a class of women such as transwomen!

@HelenHywater

I think this is a really interesting thread - good to see the law laid out clearly.

My question is to @TalkingtoLangClegintheDark why should women worry about post-op transexual people in their toilets? People ask me this all the time - is it just a theoretical argument that female spaces are female and you can't actually change sex, or is there a safety or other reason?

My question to @BlueLipstickRocks is what is your objection to a third space? I totally get that you might not want or might feel unsafe in a male toilet, but I also agree that women (people born female) shouldn't be obliged to provide safety or comfort to you at their own expense. What would be wrong with a third space?

(and thank you for the stats - I really didn't know that there are only 5000 post-op transsexual people in this country. Gosh. )

There aren’t 5000 post-op transsexuals in the UK. There are around 5000 people with a GRC. Surgery is not a prerequisite for a GRC, and not all people who’ve had surgery (to any degree) have a GRC.

I don’t want any males in my single-sex spaces regardless of whether they’ve had their penis removed or not. A penis is not the only thing that can hurt a woman. And male socialisation and the male gaze are also things I do not want in spaces where I’m vulnerable. Also, when transwomen talk about ‘having surgery’ they often mean only facial feminisation, breast implants, or something else other than removal of the penis.

Also, as others have said, how would you police allowing those who’ve had their penis removed into women’s spaces? You aren’t legally allowed to ask to see a GRC and in any case that’s irrelevant as GRC doesn’t prove the person has had their penis removed.

It’s interesting that the trans ‘allies’ to GC women often argue that all the other transwomen should be banned from women’s spaces, but that an exception should be made for them personally or the tiny subgroup they represent. Debbie Hayton argues (or used to, not sure where they are now) that they should be allowed to use women’s spaces because they’ve had surgery, even though they don’t have a GRC. Bluelipstick and others appear to be arguing it should be on the basis of a GRC.

A line has to be drawn somewhere, and experience shows that the only clear place is: no males. No matter how they identify, what surgery they’ve chosen to undergo, what legal process they’ve gone through - no males. Any exceptions end up falling into the trap of giving an inch and a mile being taken.

Also, and above all for me, a woman is not a man without a penis. For centuries, following Aristotle, this is how women were seen: as deficient men, men who lacked something important. We still fall back into thinking like this if we’re not careful. Women are people and a class in our own right, and the absence of a penis does not enable a man to join us, whether that loss was freely chosen through surgery or the outcome of a terrible accident or illness, for instance. A woman is not a man without a penis.