What right to a single sex space do I have and how?

[Avocadowoman]

I saw a comment on another thread and it got me thinking. The comment was (broadly):

'A woman's right to a single sex space cannot co-exist with a transwoman's right to enter a woman's space based on gender identity'.

That is undoubtably true. If a transwoman enters a female space that space is no longer single sex.

However I am unsure what legal rights exist to give women the right to single sex spaces. The trouble seems to be that the law seems to assume that they are something someone will want to provide, and go from there.

Workplace regulations mean I have the right to a single sex toilet at work (but we all know how many workplaces ignore that in their transgender policies).

I haven't looked into prisons legislation.

But I think everything else is based on a providers right to provide a single sex service. If they choose to provide one great, if not I don't think I have the right to one.

If a provider chosses to open a female space to transgender women without a GRC, the people who are being discriminated against (legally) are, I think, not women, but men who would like to access that space but who are turned away and do not say they are transwomen. This makes it much harder to deal with through litigation, I think.

Clearly females are discriminated against in the same way by not being able to go into male spaces if those male spaces are open to transmen without a GRC, but that doesn't help me if what I want is a female space.

If my religion was one which forbade me to (for example) undress with men, then possibly the lack of provision of a single sex space may be discrimination due to my religion - but as it happens that is not my religion so that doesn't help me.

That means that where the single sex space is provided by the government (prison, hospital, school etc) it is the government we can petition to keep those spaces single sex. And that is useful because the government would not want to have a policy that is 'hypothetically discrimatory' if I can put it like that (eg discriminates against a woman who wants to enter a male single sex space, even though that is less likely to happen).

But sports, for example, therefore need to be taken up with each provider/governing body.

Am I missing something? Ot do women actually have very few 'rights to single sex spaces' compared to 'the right to provide a single sex space'?

Mishi but men DO go into changing rooms, loos etc to perv on women. Do you accept that?

And men cannot be challenged at the moment because the current climate means they can shout bigot and the woman will be shamed, lose her job etc. Do you also accept that?

I'm useless with links but others have them and can direct you to thread after thread of links.

So given the two above points, even though a bog standard man with stubble andale genitals is not allowed in the ladies, realistically he can enter whenever he likes and most women will just try to politely ignore him, or else they will move out the way.

He might not be actively saying 'budge up love, I'm a lady too' but the current situation means that he could say that and all women know he could say that, and therefore they keep quiet and slowly diminish their activities and lives to make way for him

@Grellbunt

The problem is even some GRC holders have not had surgery. I don't want any male without surgery in a single sex space. The law allows for that but the single-sex exceptions have to actually be invoked and often aren't. We need to make the argument that failure to invoke them is problematic, and there are legal arguments to that effect, but it would be a lot easier if organisations were forced to use these exceptions.

What type of surgery? Cosmetic surgery. Many people have cosmetic surgery, men and women. Boob job. Well many women have plastic surgery for aesthetic purposes. I think some men get implants to make them look ripped. Also men can get boob jobs too. I'm not convinced that cosmetic surgery changes thing very much in the way many (or if honest, most) women would view their biology.

Of course, some men (very, very few) have a cosmetic job done on their genitals. Some men may have part of (or all of) their genitals removed in the case of accidents or disease. Should these men, or even elderly gents or impotent man have access to women's spaces too? If not, why not? Physically, their bits may not be in full working order either. Why is it not terrible they should still have to use the facilities provided for their biological sex? Should they fall into one of the exceptions too?

Third spaces are not disabled spaces.

Third spaces would be mixed gender spaces. And the women displaced and distressed by enforcing single sex spaces to be mixed sex come from multiple minority groups with vulnerabilities and add up to many, many more people negatively impacted than the umbrella of people not of the sex class the space was set up to provide for.

It is not proportionate. No one is talking about making ALL women's spaces single sex again, but there must be single sex options for women who need them because natal women cannot be excluded from all facilities so that others can take a preferred choice. That isn't inclusion, that's plain sexism. Third spaces are the way forward with this, and would be gender neutral, many women would perfectly happily use them who don't personally need single sex spaces, parents with opposite sex children would, they would be for inclusion a generally very good thing.

It would however require the respecting that some natal women need single sex spaces, and for those spaces to be respected in the same way you're quite rightly saying that disabled spaces should be respected.

Trans people are just not interested in anything in the bathroom then others also wish to do.

Well post op Jessica Yaniv, who wants to help little girls with their tampons, disagrees.

As does sex offender and killer Karen Jones, post op, with a GRC.

As did the TRA, whose name escapes me, on Twitter laughing and joking about listening to women urinate in the cubicle next to them. They had no idea that women urinate differently to men, apparently

Incidentally it's really disappointing to see yet more misinformation about the GRA on here. The wonderful Ann Sinnott and her GC donors paid £100,000 for the high court judgement pointing out the idea trans people only get access to spaces if they have a GRC - is "wrong in law" and "absurd".

Absolutely correct and something that I believe needs changed immediately.

Where someone is able to use the space of the opposite biological sex I think everyone would agree that if it's to happen it must be at the very end of a medicalised journey not the start!

@NonnyMouse1337

The last time we had this conversation and kept going round in circles, my questions remained unanswered. I'm posting them again. Let's see if any of those who are against women's rights to single-sex spaces from all males can answer them.

How am I meant to objectively tell the difference between a transsexual and a transvestite or autogynephilic male?

How am I meant to objectively tell the difference between a pre-op transsexual and a post-op transsexual?

How am I meant to objectively tell the difference between a transsexual with a GRC and a transsexual without a GRC?

Original thread

Short answer - you can't. Unless we all show some sort of ID and have police out the front of each toilet.

A GRC is irrelevant to womens space access per the EA Act 2010.

We already know that butch women being challenge in the toilets for appearing to me trans is a problem. This fear mongering is irresponsible.

We don't design laws based on feelings. We design laws based on risks. Males as a class represent a risk of rape resulting in pregnancy that is unique to that class. That is why the law distinguishes male on female rape as a separate, specific crime, and why we have single sex facilities.

Other assaults and sexual assaults can of course occur, and are obviously also deplorable, but that is the specific reason why we separate the sexes according to their impregnator / impregnee class.

So Mishi I have to wait until I'm attacked or perved on, then find the strength to report and go to court, rather than the legal provisions to stopy attack in the first place being enforced?

OK, thanks for letting me know where I stand in comparison to hurting people's feelings.

And on reflection, OP I apologise, I've contributed to a derail there and should not have done.

@Avocadowoman

Blue, what is your view on third spaces? Could you give an example where a third space wouldn’t work?

I'm very confident none of the gender critical people advocating for "third spaces" for trans people, in a "separate but equal" regime were happy the government recently announced guidelines would mandate no third spaces, as in gender neutral loos? I mean they "won" the argument with the Tories, so that means all trans people have to use the binary spaces available.

@Datun

Trans people are just not interested in anything in the bathroom then others also wish to do.

Well post op Jessica Yaniv, who wants to help little girls with their tampons, disagrees.

As does sex offender and killer Karen Jones, post op, with a GRC.

As did the TRA, whose name escapes me, on Twitter laughing and joking about listening to women urinate in the cubicle next to them. They had no idea that women urinate differently to men, apparently

Two examples, a third unknown.

Again rare exceptions. And the offenders are and should be being dealt with.

The rest is just fear mongering against a minority group.

(and thank you for the stats - I really didn't know that there are only 5000 post-op transsexual people in this country. Gosh. )

I wonder (if there are 5,000 post-op transsexual people in the UK) if that includes girls/women who are getting their breasts removed for cosmetic rather than other reasons It is people, so men and women.

@MapGirlExtraordinaire

So Mishi I have to wait until I'm attacked or perved on, then find the strength to report and go to court, rather than the legal provisions to stopy attack in the first place being enforced?

OK, thanks for letting me know where I stand in comparison to hurting people's feelings.

Yes. That is how the law works. You don't prejudge offenders.

Your statement is extraordinary. Do you want men and women separated in society as well for the same concern? As logically that is where your argument goes.....

Two examples, a third unknown.

Again rare exceptions. And the offenders are and should be being dealt with.

The rest is just fear mongering against a minority group.

Oh dear. There are so many examples of men who say they're women getting up to the nefarious 'activities' in women's toilets, it's become a porn genre.

Numerous films uploaded to porn hub.

Of course.

Violating women's boundaries is the cornerstone of pornography.

Mishi what about women's prisons, if you don't believe everyday women deserve the right to single sex spaces to 'just pee'?

Do you accept that biological males who may be anywhere in the gender reassignment process from 0 to 100% should be permitted onto the female estate, living amongst some of the most vulnerable and abused women in the country? Or do you at least accept that a separate prison purely for transwoman is justified?

I'm not saying they should stay in the male population, I can see some very vulnerable transwoman would be at huge risk there, so let's get that one right off the table.

Women's estate or separate facility, and why?

Blue interested in your answer here too if you don't mind since you refuse to answer my and others question about telling the difference between harmless transwomen and male pervs

@BlueLipstickRocks

'A woman's right to a single sex space cannot co-exist with a transwoman's right to enter a woman's space based on gender identity'.

Within the nonsense that is the trans umbrella there are a vast array of reasons why a person who identifies as a "transwoman" uses a woman's space. For some it is about a self declared gender identity, for some I accept it can be more nefarious reasons. For me as a post op transsexual my use of women's toilets is both about safety and the fact that the facilities offered meet me needs whereas make facilities do not. It is also about dysmorphia and dysphoria.

The legal definition of female and the biological definition of female are not the same thing. "Same sex" applies to same legal sex, not same biological sex.

The law has been grossly distorted by Stonewall and far too many have taken on board this manipulation.

A couple of quick points:

1. The protected characteristic is gender reassignment. It is not gender identity. One if Stonewalls lies.
2. A protected characteristic doesn't change a person's legal sex. There are now 650,000 people who identify as trans in the UK. For over 645,000 of these for all the protestations their legal sex is their biological sex. That's over 99.2%!
3. Legal sex can be changed through a GRC. Its not a perfect system and it needs changed but it's not completely broken.
4. Sex based laws apply to legal sex. For example Sex Discrimination is not biological sex but legal sex.

The spirit of the law was never about the nonsense we see now. It was about a very small number (5,000) being able to address dysmorphia and dysphoria and integrate following a complex medical transition.

As this debate goes on I believevwe will reach a position where a woman's space becomes a penis free zone. I don't believe it will be restricted to biological sex.

This is all we want, women's spaces to be penis free zones. We want to be able to go to the toilet/showers/ changing rooms etc without fear of being raped by a man who pretends to be trans to access our spaces.

Mishi so you don't think there should be any single sex spaces for women anywhere because not all men are dangerous?

And safeguarding for children... Should DBSs not exist because most teachers / scout leaders are nice? Let's wait until a caretaker attacks a child before checking out their background?

OK, at least you're consistent in your views.
I'll respectfully disagree that they're the best way to run a society.

We already know that butch women being challenge in the toilets for appearing to me trans is a problem.

It is a problem, you say. That is a pretty big statement. I wonder if it really is.

Ok. Maybe back to the op's question.

If we’re going to let men in then let’s just let all men in, after all most men aren’t attackers.

So if we did somehow decide that Blue's solution of permitting access to opposite sex spaces to post op GRC holders only - no other trans people - was workable - & it isn't...

...then MishyJDI won't be very happy.

& if we accepted MishyJDI's frankly risible claim that there's no risk to letting any man who identifies as a woman into female spaces, Blue won't be happy, lots more of the 5000 GRC holders won't be happy & more importantly an awful lot of the millions of women the spaces are actually intended for won't be happy.

I'm going to go with: adult & juvenile human females are the only people who should be in single sex female spaces.

& a proportionate solution to where this leaves any & all unhappy males AND women who want to share with them, is the provision of unisex facilities alongside.

It seems to me that this would be most workable, safest, & keep the largest number of people happy overall.

And Mishi no of course I don't want all of society segregated. I live with two males, that would be tricky to boot them out.

I do want spaces where women and children are vulnerable to have safeguards in place.

When a woman is getting undressed I want her to feel safe that no male bodied person will be able to enter and stare at her.

When a woman is getting on a bus fully dressed with shopping I think it's fair enough that the seat next to her be sat in by a man. Any woman who is unhappy with this needs to make her own separate provisions, ie drive / walk.

To me that's pretty obvious in a civilised society. I'm amazed you see it differently.

Perhaps Mishy could post links to incidents of trans women attacked in male toilets.

I’ve never heard of any and I think most men would be insulted at the idea that they would immediately attack a trans woman on sight.

Rather like the murder stats, I wonder if this problem has also been exaggerated.

What would distinguish a male on male attack on a transwoman in a male toilet from a male on male attack on a male with a disability or other protected characteristic?

Short answer - you can't. Unless we all show some sort of ID and have police out the front of each toilet.

A GRC is irrelevant to womens space access per the EA Act 2010.

Excellent clarification. Hence why the only logical and workable position is to build public and parliamentary support to exclude all males from women's single-sex spaces and services. No exceptions.

Third spaces are available for anyone and everyone to use. It's not for just trans people - Lots of people hate shared spaces and might like a private, self-contained unit for changing etc. And adequate public funding provided to have trans specific services in addition to female specific services.

I’ve never heard of any and I think most men would be insulted at the idea that they would immediately attack a trans woman on sight.

It happens and remarkably common. I have been attacked multiple times.