My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

[Bryonyshcmyony]

It came up on the news and I said something like surely its obvious that biological sex is real. Gender identity isn't the same as biological sex. She said people on tiktok say that there is a chromosomal spectrum. I said if someone has a chromosomal abnormality that's not proof that biological sex doesn't exist. Then she cried, said how frustrated I make her and just wants to live in a world where transpeople are accepted for who they are and its not her job to educate me as - and I quote - an ignorant old person.

I'm actually quite hurt. I don't want her to hate me! Obviously it's just a subject that is completely out of bounds. Anyone else faced similar?

Just remind him that he has no skin in the game. His gamer pal is speaking from their own POV. And as I remind DS - you never know who you are speaking to online.

@aloris

My teenage son believes TWAW and that I am a hater. His perspective is from the transwomen he talks to online when he is gaming (he began this when the pandemic began; before that he only talked to his school friends online).

As my DH says, men’s part in all of this should be to support women to preserve their safe spaces or shut up.

@aloris

My teenage son believes TWAW and that I am a hater. His perspective is from the transwomen he talks to online when he is gaming (he began this when the pandemic began; before that he only talked to his school friends online).

DH was out with his friend, his friend's 18 year old son and a couple of other mates the other friends the other day. Another older adult thought it was fun to try and stir the pot as they were talking about politics by asking about the trans/womans conflict.

The son replied that he didn't really have much of an opinion on the subject as it didn't affect him directly - and was something that had a far greater impact on others who were much more clued up on the subject in various ways and as such he was going to take a pass on the subject - and he was more generally more concerned about other issues.

For someone of his age, in the face of someone on the deliberate wind up, I thought this was a reply wise beyond his years. It was very refreshing.

Its depressing that kids seem to value voices of strangers they've never met on the internet over and above even listening to those they know and take up a view without exploring the subject from multiple viewpoints and informing themselves before forming an opinion of their own. Instead the default seems to be 'hang the person who isn't fully signed up to internet orthodoxy of opinion and doesn't repeat it verbatium'.

It's so nice seeing parents put their pride before their kids' respect, trust and mental wellness. You don't throw an infantile tantrum of a power trip and "come down" on it, you talk it out like an actual adult; end of story. I don't care what the age.

I agree regarding Tiktok, though - a fine source if you're looking for opinions, but certainly NOT a good reference for facts. That said, she is actually correct on this one.
While I've been aware of this for a while, I decided to check Google just now to make sure I could point people toward it.
Sniffing around on Google very lightly just now led me to "the spectrum model of sex, gender and sexuality", and academic sources as well as various other article sources are pretty uniformly stating exactly what she said: sex is a spectrum. There's even talk about XY women getting pregnant - and I'm not talking about AMAB (assigned-male-at-birth) women, either... pretty sure that one hasn't been done yet, but don't quote me on that.

I'm not really sure I could dig it back up, but my introduction into the Spectrum Model was courtesy of a biologist who posted a rather expansive thread on the matter over on Twitter, and something that caught my eye was a graph they included showing that the spectrum looks more like a camel's back: what are recognized as "male" and "female" - even themselves including a broad spectrum of distinct patterns in sex-related biochemistry and neurochemistry - are ultimately just peaks in the spectrum, which valleys out in the middle and on the sides (don't ask me about the sides, I may have heard of super-polarized sexes or something, but if so that was a long time ago, probably on an episode of House, M.D. thus to be taken with a grain of salt, and ultimately I'm not well-versed enough to discuss whatever it is that lies on the periphery of that spectrum.).

Apparently I can't edit my message...
anyway, it was in reply to the first reply.

Ok Error so at what point does a person who is born XY become able to get pregnant and give birth? Or a person who is XX become able to produce sperm? I'm not talking about someone who is intersex. I'm talking about someone who is born with biological and chromosomal criteria to be within one of those "peaks" on your spectrum and states that they are now the opposite sex (not gender). Is it when they take enough hormones? When they have surgery?

Even were we to accept the premise that "sex is a spectrum", that in no way implies that biological sex isn't real, or that someone can move along said spectrum to change their sex through hormones and surgery. Same for sexual orientation - that is the thinking behind conversion therapy - if you work at it hard enough, or want it enough, you can move along the spectrum of sexual orientation and a gay person can become straight through therapy.

Errorcode except that model is not actually correct; it’s a fanciful one largely not subscribed to by actual biologists.

Sex characteristics might be on a spectrum; that doesn’t mean sex itself actually is, despite the existence of differences in sexual development (DSD/formerly intersex) conditions. A very few people have something other than XX or XY chromosomes; but what they all have is variant patterns of X and Y: but this in itself doesn’t make sex a spectrum!

I find it really sad that teenagers are being introduced to some very disputed ideas on social media, which they then cling to despite quite a lot of these being false or misleading. I’ve seen all sorts of charts of nonsense about sex and gender and sexuality floating around youth social media, presented with various degrees of apparently “scientific” veracity: that doesn’t make them actually true.

Young people need to be gently taught that social media and the internet is not where you get proper knowledge from unless you already know enough to know how to accurately interpret it, which requires years of study and academic work.

I'd agree entirely that sexuality and gender, in terms of the feelings you have about yourself and your presentation to the world, are on a spectrum.

XY women with Swyer's syndrome are women. Individuals have female external genitalia, streak gonads so no functional eggs, but they do have a uterus. So, yes, with a donated egg they can in rare cases carry a pregnancy and give birth usually by C-section due to associated anatomical abnormalities.

I think I've read the article you're referring to and of course there are people who aren't delusional or communicate only via Tiktok who state that sex is a spectrum. I think they're wrong. Male and female refers to reproductive roles and no human has ever done both roles. Women with Swyer syndrome aren't 'women who are a bit male', they are women.

the spectrum looks more like a camel's back

What utter nonsense, it would look more like a camel that got squashed carrying the Twin Towers on its back. "Spectrum" my arse.

How many gametes are there, Errorcode? And how many reproductive roles are needed for the continuation of the human species? Do you think humans are a bipedal species, or does the existence of humans with no, one or three legs mean we are on a spectrum from zero to three legs?

Are those sex spectrum people the ones who make spregs? Do you need 2 spregs to make sprogs are is 1 spreg enough?

academic sources as well as various other article sources are pretty uniformly stating exactly what she said: sex is a spectrum

Stock deals with this early on and fairly comprehensively.

Of course, every taxonomy has a handful of borderline cases, doesn’t normally change the taxonomy.

That video on another recent thread is great -

If I was OP I'd make DD an offer. Choose any video she wants to explain why TRAs are right, maybe even a few short videos. Her choice as to which videos get watched first, but you'll watch the above GC video together, and her videos of choice and then you will each explain what you agree with in the other's video(s), and what you disagree with and why. And if it comes down to facts you wil both try to go away and try to evidence the facts using data from reliable sources.

This video by Plebity is good - it's a demonstration of the 'asking questions' technique, for discussing this topic

They have some other great youtube videos too. They've both been 'cancelled' for daring to speak about this stuff!

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

Trite male The reason that less dad's are the sahp has nothing to do with turn ons and everything to do with finance. Most men are bigger earners than their partners and so when it comes to maternity leave or career breaks the women takes the hit because it makes financial sense (and also biological sense if you breastfeed) I'd love DH to split the maternity but he earns double what I do despite us training at the same time in the same field. He got up the ladder quicker. Believe me, the fact he can change a nappy and will take Ds for a morning when baby has been up all night isn't just a 'turn on' it's a godsend.

And women fancy lots of different types of men. Benedict Cumberbatch, Jonathan Rhys Meyers, Killian Murphy. Furthermore, if there's over representation of beefy guys it's because directors, who are overwhelmingly male, seek them out.

There's also nothing wrong with fancying beefy guys anyway, apparently Jason Momoa is lovely in real life.

Men generally only earn more because their wives take career breaks and their career stalls.

"Men generally only earn more because their wives take career breaks and their career stalls."

Are you sure about that? I thought that other factors were also at play -

(1) Men more likely to be in dangerous and physically exhausting jobs that not everyone can or is willing to do. Women more likely to be in shamefully undervalued caring jobs.

(2) Sex discrimination meaning two similar office workers might earn different money, with the man earning more, even before either has had kids.

(3) Maybe others.

@ErrorCode if sex is a spectrum, what's the variable on the x-axis that we're being distributed along please?

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

Trite male The reason that less dad's are the sahp has nothing to do with turn ons and everything to do with finance. Most men are bigger earners than their partners and so when it comes to maternity leave or career breaks the women takes the hit because it makes financial sense (and also biological sense if you breastfeed) I'd love DH to split the maternity but he earns double what I do despite us training at the same time in the same field. He got up the ladder quicker. Believe me, the fact he can change a nappy and will take Ds for a morning when baby has been up all night isn't just a 'turn on' it's a godsend.

And women fancy lots of different types of men. Benedict Cumberbatch, Jonathan Rhys Meyers, Killian Murphy. Furthermore, if there's over representation of beefy guys it's because directors, who are overwhelmingly male, seek them out.

There's also nothing wrong with fancying beefy guys anyway, apparently Jason Momoa is lovely in real life.

I was by far the biggest earner at the time of my first child. My OH had no interest in taking time off to look after the baby. If I’d insisted so I could get back to work he’d have done the absolute minimum amount of time before external childcare and would have been constantly frustrated that the baby wouldn’t fit around what he wanted to do. I also needed physical recovery time before going back to work so took the maternity leave. Two decades after having two children my salary has been on a steady decline and my OH’s has continued on a steady steep upwards trajectory. I’m just as competent as I was when I got the better paid jobs and max bonuses before having children. We have similar skill levels and started working in similar area, I’ve had to make more compromises and take flexibility over career as someone had to be the parent. I continued to be recognised as an expert in the industry external to my employer he is not.

I discovered my son had called a woman a ‘terf’ on twitter and I let him know exactly how angry I was about him using a slur on a woman to dismiss their point of view and how that made me feel as his mother. He apologised and says he’s changed his view, if I find he hasn’t I know I’ll regret the sacrifices and hard work I’ve put into trying to be a good mother. I don’t expect him to have the same view as me and I know he doesn't in various other areas but I expect as a minimum for him to treat women with respect and some modicum of understanding of the impact of social pressure and sex differences on women.

@JediGnot

"Men generally only earn more because their wives take career breaks and their career stalls."

Are you sure about that? I thought that other factors were also at play -

(1) Men more likely to be in dangerous and physically exhausting jobs that not everyone can or is willing to do. Women more likely to be in shamefully undervalued caring jobs.

(2) Sex discrimination meaning two similar office workers might earn different money, with the man earning more, even before either has had kids.

(3) Maybe others.

There are several, but women taking career breaks seem to be the main one. Actual discrimination on pay seems to be fairly uncommon, probably because you can't really even do it in a lot of sectors. Types of careers ie, dangerous, or choosing ones with more regular hours, is a factor too, as you say.

Also - I seem to recall seeing this but I don't remember where or how old it is, but if the male partner tends to be a little older than the female one, he is likely to be farther on in his career when they have kids.

@ErrorCode

It's so nice seeing parents put their pride before their kids' respect, trust and mental wellness. You don't throw an infantile tantrum of a power trip and "come down" on it, you talk it out like an actual adult; end of story. I don't care what the age.

I agree regarding Tiktok, though - a fine source if you're looking for opinions, but certainly NOT a good reference for facts. That said, she is actually correct on this one.
While I've been aware of this for a while, I decided to check Google just now to make sure I could point people toward it.
Sniffing around on Google very lightly just now led me to "the spectrum model of sex, gender and sexuality", and academic sources as well as various other article sources are pretty uniformly stating exactly what she said: sex is a spectrum. There's even talk about XY women getting pregnant - and I'm not talking about AMAB (assigned-male-at-birth) women, either... pretty sure that one hasn't been done yet, but don't quote me on that.

I'm not really sure I could dig it back up, but my introduction into the Spectrum Model was courtesy of a biologist who posted a rather expansive thread on the matter over on Twitter, and something that caught my eye was a graph they included showing that the spectrum looks more like a camel's back: what are recognized as "male" and "female" - even themselves including a broad spectrum of distinct patterns in sex-related biochemistry and neurochemistry - are ultimately just peaks in the spectrum, which valleys out in the middle and on the sides (don't ask me about the sides, I may have heard of super-polarized sexes or something, but if so that was a long time ago, probably on an episode of House, M.D. thus to be taken with a grain of salt, and ultimately I'm not well-versed enough to discuss whatever it is that lies on the periphery of that spectrum.).

Oh ErrorCode, you really need to do more than "sniffing lightly around Google" if you want to disprove that sex in humans is binary and immutable.

If you understood sex differentiation then you would know that "an XY woman giving birth" does not disprove the sex binary.

Sex chromosomes are the starting point of sex differentiation.

Male-bodied and female-bodied people are the end point of sex differentiation.

Which is why an XY-woman giving birth is neither impossible nor proof that sex is a spectrum. An individual born with complete gonadal dysgenisis (the XY-woman in question) has a female body and so falls firmly on the female side of the human sex binary. FYI, there is a total of one (1!) reported case of an XY-woman becoming pregnant unassisted in the medical literature to date. This is extremely rare precisely because sex differentiation in a XY-woman which has not followed the usual pathway that more than 99% of XY- individuals follow, does not normally result in a fertile woman able to get pregnant unassisted.

And yes, there have been various people claiming that sex is a spectrum. Invariably they fail to demonstrate the veracity of their claims and are easily disproven. I guess you didn't see that.

My favourite claim came from Alex the pediatrician who was adamant that sex was a spectrum. He later apologised and admitted it wasn't a spectrum after his university professor expressed her sadness that she didn't teach him well enough.

We discussed that fella here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3975181-Paediatrician-claiming-sex-is-a-spectrum

We pretty much discussed and/or rebutted every one of the popular threads or articles claiming that sex is a spectrum here on FWR. I'm sure we can link you to the Mumsnet thread if you tell us which Twitter thread impressed you so much.

My favourite claim came from Alex the pediatrician who was adamant that sex was a spectrum. He later apologised and admitted it wasn't a spectrum after his university professor expressed her sadness that she didn't teach him well enough.

We discussed that fella here https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3975181-Paediatrician-claiming-sex-is-a-spectrumm^

I missed that

Not in my case. Me and DH trained at the same time. I took no career break, yet DH was advanced time and again whilst doing the same job. It got to the point it was such a wide gap that when we did decide to have children it was a no brainer who should take the 'hit'.

@QuentinBunbury

My 14 yo told me I'm a transphobe and people like me are why gay people get persecuted when I asked her to define a woman It is totally cognitive dissonance, you ask a question they can't answer without betraying a core belief (e.g. TWAW) and to deal with the discomfort they shout and run away. Hard though

I sat through a training session for PREVENT and they talked about this inability to question the narrative and how people who have been targeted for radicalisation can't deal with questions they don't know how to answer because it doesn't fit the core belief. If it's off script, it's shut down.

Every bit of that training session was ticking boxes for me about the TRA narrative and the total ban on any deviation or slightest questioning of it.

That's really interesting, and fits my perception of how those with this kind of cognitive dissonance behave, and how angry and evasive they are.

@SnoopyLights That’s very interesting. Explains why the usual responses to reasonable questions on Twitter is to repeat mantras, throw insults, say you are full of hate, then block you.

As long as they do that there will be no opportunity for debate and discussion.