My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

[Bryonyshcmyony]

It came up on the news and I said something like surely its obvious that biological sex is real. Gender identity isn't the same as biological sex. She said people on tiktok say that there is a chromosomal spectrum. I said if someone has a chromosomal abnormality that's not proof that biological sex doesn't exist. Then she cried, said how frustrated I make her and just wants to live in a world where transpeople are accepted for who they are and its not her job to educate me as - and I quote - an ignorant old person.

I'm actually quite hurt. I don't want her to hate me! Obviously it's just a subject that is completely out of bounds. Anyone else faced similar?

She's a teenager. I can't believe how ott and reactive some adults on here are being.

That is so sad - there really is no satisfaction in saying ‘this was the risk we tried to tell you about’. The young people who are the cheerleaders don’t have the experience of the ones they dismiss as old dinosaurs.

@lycheevodka

She's a teenager. I can't believe how ott and reactive some adults on here are being.

She’s about to go off to uni so hardly a baby.

@lycheevodka

She's a teenager. I can't believe how ott and reactive some adults on here are being.

Still unusual behaviour for her. My teens don't usually cry and throw insults around. However she's all cheerful now and I'm moving on, with the intention of never mentioning the subject again.

she's a teenager. It's her job to have lofty beliefs that would actually hurt people if imlemented.

it's your job not to accept them.

it's her job to push you away.

it's your job to feel sad for a bit

it's her job to get over it.

So unlike the adults who react to what is obviously a craze by going off to "educate themselves" you are - by being "old" - doing your job.

"The number of trans people murdered in the UK is not officially recorded and murder victims may be misgendered, such as in media coverage of the murder of Naomi Hersi, a trans woman of colour from London, in 2018."

It is, indeed, regrettable that it's the ONS that ought to be the source of verifiable statistics and it is the ONS that has recently been attempting to put through data collection that would obscure matters even further.

What would be your preferred estimate for the number of these murder victims in the UK? Would it vary from Factcheck's estimate of 1 per year?

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

@Ereshkigalangcleg this is the first time I've ever posted on a trans debate thread. If I'm 100% honest as a reasonably privileged cis, straight white woman who is unaffected by trans issues I don't really have as much emotional connection to the debates as I do to say the sexual violence issues etc. I just don't think (as some on this thread seem to be suggesting) that only stupid, immature people take a non GC stance. It's not that simple imo.

@BeingATwatItsABingThing

It sometimes feels like their generation have been brainwashed and/or lost all capacity for independent thought.

If it makes you feel any better, I probably would have agreed with them when I was a bull-headed teen. I have since grown up and understand things so much more now. I hope a lot of this wokeness will be grown out of.

Yes, this.

As a drama student more than 20 years ago I took part in a devised piece of interpretive dance about transsexuality and the pain of transitioning (no, I'm not making that up - I wish I was!)

I'm fully gender critical now and have been for some time (though quietly, the theatre world being very woke). Maybe she'll grow out of it.

Oh yes she did tell me to educate myself. I think she may have realised what she said as I have a PhD, went to Cambridge and spend the whole time reading and learning stuff. I don't think it's possible to be more educated.

@lycheevodka

She's a teenager. I can't believe how ott and reactive some adults on here are being.

She’s about to leave home to study PHILOSOPHY and has a tantrum because she’s heard an opinion she doesn’t agree with -??

I just don't think (as some on this thread seem to be suggesting) that only stupid, immature people take a non GC stance. It's not that simple imo

I agree! She's my most clever child and I (fucking naively I know realise) thought she might say something that would make me realise why the idea of biological sex is so threatening for transpeople.

Yes - philosophy. Worrying!

If I'm 100% honest as a reasonably privileged cis, straight white woman who is unaffected by trans issues

All women are affected by women's sex based rights, and most women on this board don't identify as "cis" so where do we fit in?

[quote EmbarrassingAdmissions]"The number of trans people murdered in the UK is not officially recorded and murder victims may be misgendered, such as in media coverage of the murder of Naomi Hersi, a trans woman of colour from London, in 2018."

It is, indeed, regrettable that it's the ONS that ought to be the source of verifiable statistics and it is the ONS that has recently been attempting to put through data collection that would obscure matters even further.

What would be your preferred estimate for the number of these murder victims in the UK? Would it vary from Factcheck's estimate of 1 per year?

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk[/quote]
Karen ingala smith wrote a very good blog about it earlier in the year

kareningalasmith.com/2021/04/21/counting-dead-trans-people/

Naomi Hersi may have been "misgendered" but Naomi being a trans victim of murder is well known. I think it's highly unlikely that the murder of people who are out as trans to family and friends wouldn't be recognised as a trans murder.

@Bryonyshcmyony

I just don't think (as some on this thread seem to be suggesting) that only stupid, immature people take a non GC stance. It's not that simple imo

I agree! She's my most clever child and I (fucking naively I know realise) thought she might say something that would make me realise why the idea of biological sex is so threatening for transpeople.

Well she probably cried and got flustered because she's not (yet) got the tools in her arsenal to argue her points effectively. Maybe in a few years she'll be running rings around you in debate

My DD and I had to agree not to discuss trans when she was say 15 to 21 after many disagreements. She apologised to me the other year aged 23 and said she couldn't understand how she's been so blooming brainwashed. God love her.

I met a 20 year old this week who was amazed to be talking to a real life TERF, she was also horrified to find she could not find the words to tell me how wrong I am because normally like all the reasons for why I'm wrong are just so like obvious and god why can't she get it across to me that trans women are women ... it was all a bit painful. She's at a RG uni.

Dd's little group of female friends are all identifying as LGBTQ+ and they all go by non-gendered nicknames. I've settled for her admitting she knows people can't change sex.
At the moment though it's mostly as far as I can tell, girls identifying as boys or non-binary. It's all non-threatening in their eyes. It's all social media and blue hair. They are lucky enough not to have encountered the big stuff that turns women into feminists.

If I'm 100% honest as a reasonably privileged cis, straight white woman who is unaffected by trans issues I don't really have as much emotional connection to the debates as I do to say the sexual violence issues etc. I just don't think (as some on this thread seem to be suggesting) that only stupid, immature people take a non GC stance. It's not that simple imo.

It's affecting my children but I don't think they are stupid far from it.

They do see some of the contrdictions and ask questions about some of the odder statements they've encountered but DS did say he knew to keep his mouth shut on this subject in school rather than ask questions

I know DD1 friendship group started with pronouns and serial name changes which family isn't always made aware of after the school apparently started teaching about trans stuff in assemblies - which I only found out about after they'd happend because my kids talk to me.

I don't think this is a youth lead movement but something much more cynical and exploitative and for some more vunerable a dangerous movement.

I'm female and have two teenager DDs of course I care about sexual violence - partly why I'm so concerned about mixed sex facilities as they have much higher rate of sexuals attacks and increasingly with tech advances voyeurism and unknown recordings. They both did guides - why I was so horrified to learn about the huge safe guarding breaches being proposed by that organisation due to their trans policy.

"They are lucky enough not to have encountered the big stuff that turns women into feminists."

they have big stuff too but it's different I think. mainly the option of opting out feels real to them.

LadyoflittleLeisure

117 women were murdered in the UK last year. During that time no transwomen were murdered in the UK.

Don't you dare go on about transwomen suffering more than women.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/read-this/list-of-uk-women-killed-by-men-in-the-last-year-read-by-mp-jess-phillips-in-parliament-3163774

Happily, not one transwoman was killed in the UK in the last year.

I am a bit gutted because I have been in a chat group specifically to talk about this with some pals who were all very much on board at first.

I messaged about maya when the ruling came out and one of them replied that she was leaving the group because she had changed her mind about a lot of it.

I was gob smacked but she has a teenage daughter who has always thought we were lame old dinosaurs when it comes to this issue.

My pal also read this article about maya :

www.independent.co.uk/author/robin-moira-white

She said she thinks maya is a really transphobic woman and I should not support her. She completely shut down the conversation before I could explain what the problems with that piece were.

I feel so angry - not with my pal, that will work out, but that White was able to publish what is such a nasty, biased piece and noone has ever bought her up on it.

I wonder how her book is doing?.....

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If I'm 100% honest as a reasonably privileged cis, straight white woman who is unaffected by trans issues

All women are affected by women's sex based rights, and most women on this board don't identify as "cis" so where do we fit in?

@Ereshkigalangcleg sorry, should have said that I'm "mostly unaffected" because recently I have felt that some issues do affect women as a group more broadly. However, what pronouns people use etc doesn't affect me at all. Perhaps it is a selfish view to take but I tend not to get involved in trans debates as it's the area I feel I know the least about. However, there can be a real vibe sometimes in these threads of anyone who is non GC is stupid, or hysterical snowflake etc and I don't think that is particularly true or fair. Also Ad hominem arguments are just not good debate!

LadyOfLittleLeisure almost certainly!

they have big stuff too but it's different I think. mainly the option of opting out feels real to them.

Given the stuiff about normalization of sexual assults and horrific laguage towards girls in schools that been in headlines recently I do wonder if some think this.