Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

337 replies

Bryonyshcmyony · 11/06/2021 12:24

It came up on the news and I said something like surely its obvious that biological sex is real. Gender identity isn't the same as biological sex. She said people on tiktok say that there is a chromosomal spectrum. I said if someone has a chromosomal abnormality that's not proof that biological sex doesn't exist. Then she cried, said how frustrated I make her and just wants to live in a world where transpeople are accepted for who they are and its not her job to educate me as - and I quote - an ignorant old person.

I'm actually quite hurt. I don't want her to hate me! Obviously it's just a subject that is completely out of bounds. Anyone else faced similar?

OP posts:
PastMyBestBeforeDate · 11/06/2021 17:09

Floppy I was thinking more of rape, violence, pregnancy and pay discrimination. As far as I know dd and her Y9 friends haven't had that happen yet!

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 11/06/2021 17:11

generally dd hasn't had that at school. I was talking about her and her friends rather than a wider section of society.

Oblomov21 · 11/06/2021 17:17

She has actually said many offensive things then OP.
She needs to learn that she can't say such things without it causing damage.

LadyOfLittleLeisure · 11/06/2021 17:20

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

LadyoflittleLeisure

117 women were murdered in the UK last year. During that time no transwomen were murdered in the UK.

Don't you dare go on about transwomen suffering more than women.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/read-this/list-of-uk-women-killed-by-men-in-the-last-year-read-by-mp-jess-phillips-in-parliament-3163774

Happily, not one transwoman was killed in the UK in the last year.

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse I think that's a little unfair. I quoted a pp who said something along the lines of that trans women were discriminated against, perhaps more than other women, and agreed with most of her points. Someone brought up the sheer number of women who suffer at the hands of men (which I did know and agree with - obviously as it is fact), but I replied saying a direct comparison (which probably isn't all that helpful anyway come to think of it) is difficult because there are obviously so many more non-trans/cis women than trans women in the world. It's extremely difficult to get statistics as also discussed previously because it's not even routinely recorded in some countries! Trans people are discriminated against and beaten and raped and murdered, I guess to what extent vs non-trans/cis women is quite tricky to ascertain so maybe I should not have blanket agreed with pp's quote.

Like I said, this is my first time contributing on a trans thread. My main point was completely different (that being not GC doesn't make anyone stupid etc).

toffeebutterpopcorn · 11/06/2021 17:24

Please stop saying ‘c*s’. Makes my teeth itch.

GoWalkabout · 11/06/2021 17:27

They don't have a choice. Peer pressure these days is about always toeing the party line. Look at what happened to Maya. The tears are because they are getting the cognitive dissonance and they love you but NOT to challenge you would be viewed as actively violent.

spacegirl123 · 11/06/2021 17:27

Is it something she's maybe battling with herself?

LadyOfLittleLeisure · 11/06/2021 17:28

@toffeebutterpopcorn

Please stop saying ‘c*s’. Makes my teeth itch.
Argh @toffeebutterpopcorn feel like I'm getting this all wrong and never to wade into a trans thread again Grin What should I say? (Genuinely- trying to get this right)
Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 11/06/2021 17:31

Lady thanks for explaining. There's no evidence that, in the UK, transwomen are at more risk proportionally than women. If there were data we would know about it. (For the record I'm glad to know that no transwomen were murdered in the UK last year).

Please don't use cis or non trans. Women and transwomen work just fine.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 11/06/2021 17:31

Lady woman or women is sufficient.

LadyOfLittleLeisure · 11/06/2021 17:35

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse and @PastMyBestBeforeDate thanks for letting me know :)

Freespeecher · 11/06/2021 17:53

Going riiiiight back to the OP, 'it's not my educate' = 'I can't defend my point'.

I see Graun writers frequently use this device plus variations such as 'i could write a long explanation as to why...' (well go ahead then! Just writing that doesn't mean you've automatically proved your point) and it drives me nuts.

Original poster
Bryonyshcmyony · 11/06/2021 17:54

She's sent me a text apologising saying she didn't know why she took it so personally. She says if I'm really interested she can find me some gen z articles to read. Obviously I'd rather gouge my own eyes out, but I ve said that would be great thank you and don't worry.

Hopefully she'll forget about the articles Grin

OP posts:
ValancyRedfern · 11/06/2021 18:01

I'd go for a quid pro quo. You will read some of her articles if she will read some of yours.

I recommend these two:

www.feministcurrent.com/2017/07/26/white-feminism-thing-gender-identity-ideology-epitomizes/

www.google.com/amp/s/aeon.co/amp/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/06/2021 18:01

Send her some back if she does? Fair's fair, she can learn from your views and you hers. You can both at least learn what the opposite view is.

Subbaxeo · 11/06/2021 18:06

I actually think it’s to be admired that she’s getting worked up about a subject that seems to matter to her because she’s obviously thinking about injustice/fairness and being inclusive. Better that than obsessing about hair products and lip filler. My son has what I would call ‘interesting’ views on capitalism but at least he’s thinking about how we live our lives and the morality behind it rather than just getting hammered watching a sports game. Although they do those things too! My friend’s daughter has turned into an earnest vegan-but has made her parents far more tolerant of other people’s views-in fact, they get quite cross when their friends patronise her food choices. I remember being young and getting worked up about apartheid and Thatcherism-to the bemusement of older family members.

Subbaxeo · 11/06/2021 18:08

...I’m a firm capitalist now, but still can’t comprehend how earlier generations thought it was acceptable to stream people by skin colour.

Original poster
Bryonyshcmyony · 11/06/2021 18:09

Yes she's very fired up about lots of things and usually very rational. Even if we don't agree we usually spar quite happily. But this issue is different.

But, as I believe that the trans activist movement (Not transgender people as a group) is partially motivated by misogyny, I won't let this issue drive a wedge between a mother and a daughter.

OP posts:
Tibtom · 11/06/2021 18:11

In my day if was 'save the Whales' now it is 'save the middle aged man who identifies as a woman'...

Rejoiningperson · 11/06/2021 18:11

@LadyOfLittleLeisure I am not really massively ‘in’ the trans debate either. I just speak from my own heart I think and because I had some free time (and admit I was bored) I read a few more threads in the feminism boards lately. I still don’t know what a TRA is and had to look up GC. So you are not alone!

Cis makes my teeth itch too, and to be honest no one I know where I live has a clue what it means. You can call yourself that if you want though. I’m just a woman and I am not going to be given a new name by anyone - so I’m never, ever going to refer to myself as that. That’s just me.

Anyway I was just going to say don’t worry if you are not ‘in’ with the debate - I am also not that up with it and wont’ be able to. I do get involved with safeguarding children and education, and focus on that, in a broad sense but also was quite worried when sex education packs from trans groups appeared in schools which had some serious safeguarding breaches. We all have our own areas.

Rejoiningperson · 11/06/2021 18:14

I won't let this issue drive a wedge between a mother and a daughter. exactly you will know best how to approach this and good relationships can weather differences too - it’s okay that she can express herself to you and better that she tells you and you can work through it, with compassion. They are young and I do think it’s quite a lot of issues, with an intense emotional aspect - even on this thread murders have been bought up - this is not an issue that seems debatable in calm rational terms often! And we are adults with experience. She isn’t.

RadandMad · 11/06/2021 18:24

My kids have tried this crap with me. I won't stand for it. No one is going to bloody lecture me on what a woman is, especially not my sons. I've stuck to my guns, made sure I know what I'm talking about, and been very vocal about where I stand and why. And they have shifted in their views, especially my youngest - he's a great deal less patronisingly woke now than a couple of years ago.

I think it's really important as a parent to provide a bedrock of reality, if that makes sense, and for kids to see that women are not there to be hectored and pushed around.

Zeev · 11/06/2021 18:25

Trans women who have physically changed sex

And in about 5 minutes someone will drop by to roll eyes at us and say "of course no trans people think that people change their sex, it's just you lot who mix things up"

motogogo · 11/06/2021 18:34

Yes, DD's don't understand why i would want a female space at all. They are quite comfortable in mixed company etc and have trans friends

Subbaxeo · 11/06/2021 18:41

@Zeev

Trans women who have physically changed sex

And in about 5 minutes someone will drop by to roll eyes at us and say "of course no trans people think that people change their sex, it's just you lot who mix things up"

That’s me told! I know very little about the whole debate, I just happily mixed up sex and gender without really knowing the difference. Apologies for causing offence to anyone.