My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

[Bryonyshcmyony]

It came up on the news and I said something like surely its obvious that biological sex is real. Gender identity isn't the same as biological sex. She said people on tiktok say that there is a chromosomal spectrum. I said if someone has a chromosomal abnormality that's not proof that biological sex doesn't exist. Then she cried, said how frustrated I make her and just wants to live in a world where transpeople are accepted for who they are and its not her job to educate me as - and I quote - an ignorant old person.

I'm actually quite hurt. I don't want her to hate me! Obviously it's just a subject that is completely out of bounds. Anyone else faced similar?

@motogogo

Yes, DD's don't understand why i would want a female space at all. They are quite comfortable in mixed company etc and have trans friends

I hope they are never in a situation where they would really want single sex space - hospital, refuge, prison... how can they not get their heads around this? It’s either yes or no with regards to mixed sex facilities.

@motogogo

Yes, DD's don't understand why i would want a female space at all. They are quite comfortable in mixed company etc and have trans friends

It's lovely that teenagers feel so comfortable around each other but they will have known their pals and classmates for years. I am perfectly comfortable around my male friends I have known for decades.

They have trans friends but again, will know them and have established trust with them.

It is when they start mixing more generally with strangers without their familiar support group that they will start to realise why female spaces are so important.

Also, don't underestimate how important it is for kids to be seen as cooool, and how difficult to go against the herd. Noone wants to be the prude who won't share the bed with boys, noone wants to say anything unpopular and be excluded from the friendship group..... and if it starts to make them feel uncomfortable they will be extra militant about it to reassure themselves....

I wish we could teach kids about these things....

Depends how you define biological sex. If it’s whether someone has XX or XY chromosomes then clearly this cannot ever be changed and can’t believe anyone could think otherwise when presented with the facts. It’s in our DNA. Not an expert but I recently had a blood test (I’m pregnant) where they analyse the DNA from the foetus as early as 10 weeks pregnant and can tell the sex of the baby I.e what chromosomes they have..pretty clever. But I don’t think science of yet clever enough to alter someone’s DNA. Pretty scary and stuff of science fiction if they discovered how to do that! Could you explain it this way? However, they might be (and am assuming they are) defining biological sex in some other way? Gender a different matter maybe?

@motogogo

Yes, DD's don't understand why i would want a female space at all. They are quite comfortable in mixed company etc and have trans friends

I have male friends I’m more than happy to share spaces with including changing rooms because ive known them for years

That’s completely different to sharing a changing room with a random bloke who
Identifies as a woman 3 days a week

Also I’m extremely bored of everyone under 21 simultaneously lecturing us that trans ppl ‘have existed for like ever boomer’ whilst also insisting we’re so old we don’t know any trans ppl because if we did we’d understand

It’s extremely difficult to lend any credence to “gen z articles” and suchlike, though - because they are so often patently wrong, as per the person who argued that trans women get murdered at far greater rates than women despite all the factual evidence in the U.K. being the reverse. It’s a kind of mass Gen Z delusion akin to Trumpist fake news. I spend a lot of time on gen z platforms, partly because of my job and partly through w hobby, and so much of these “articles” are fact-free nonsense, unfortunately.

One of my (female, taken in by the gender woo) students spent a long time trying to convince me that it was absolutely the case that the most discriminated-against population in this country are white teenage boys with “gender identity issues”, largely because some of her male friends have to “question their gender identity”. Totally impervious to actual fact about what real disadvantage is. I’m not sure how far it really is our job to humour these kinds of delusions, because it’s always been women’s work to indulge and humour people at our own expense. Even our own daughters. 😞

@WanderleyWagon

I think I'm going against the consensus in this thread, but I actually don't agree the OP is handling it well, because it sounds like you're being just as simplistic as your daughter is.

It may not be welcome in this forum to say it, but there's a real debate to be had here.

I consider myself a diehard feminist, and I hate seeing how this battle is being played out between women, who have been and are badly discriminated against, and transwomen who are at least as badly (and in many cases probably more) discriminated against. Surely, we have more in common than what divides us?

Some of the language that the OP is using ('brainwashed') suggests that the OP doesn't acknowledge any room for debate and I can understand how the daughter finds this frustrating. I too want 'to live in a world where transpeople are accepted for who they are' and I think this impulse of hers is coming from a kind and positive place.

I won't go more into this or into my own background as somebody who has heavily used women-only spaces of all kinds, but I think there are worse life philosophies than 'be kind' and 'be open and welcoming to people who we perceive as not like ourselves'.

And for @AnnaMagnani (good name!) who said: And no, there is never any evidence that any of them has ever met an actual transwoman in real life. It's all posh women with luxury beliefs

I work in a university, and I've met a number of transwomen, though work or in private life, over a period of twenty years. And I don't see myself or my colleagues in the description "posh women with luxury beliefs"! :)

You see I don't disagree with you in principle, but you seem to have missed the fact that 1. the DD's argument was based on something she saw on Tik Tok and 2. DD was the one who stormed off and didn't want a discussion.

I do feel like there is a middle ground to be found somewhere if people are willing to respectfully discuss and debate, but only one side seems willing to do that...

It’s exhausting and upsetting but I think My 21 year old is coming out the other end.

If they knew what the hell we were up to in the 80s their hair would turn grey. And if you told them what great grandma got up to in the blackout...

@Tibtom

In my day if was 'save the Whales' now it is 'save the middle aged man who identifies as a woman'...

This made me laugh 😂

Reminds me of a friend from years ago. Said something similar. "We used to be scared of nuclear wars and went on marches but now my kids are scared of mad cow disease and refuse to go to McDonald's."

Now they are scared of pronouns.

The human race is doomed

@WanderleyWagon over the years through work as both colleagues and patients I've met both transwomen and transmen.

The colleagues have been fantastic colleagues. But I'd say not one of us thought the transwoman was an actual woman or the transman was an actual man. Neither did they expect us to, they were getting on with their lives and jobs and so were we.

Patients... OK well here I am biassed but I work in a sex offender prison. I think I've said enough. They aren't women.

Outside of prison - where you used to see young adults with anorexia or self harm, now you see trans. First noticed it about 10 years ago.

LadyOfLittleLeisure

"the suicide risk in transgender people is higher than in the general population" www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/

How are we defining transgender people? Is it possible that many who commit suicide would be better placed in the "undiagnosed depression" category of suicide risk, or "abused children" category? Is it possible we are underplaying the risks associated with depression or homophobic bullying or being abused leading to suicide, and overplaying the numbers of "genuinely trans" people who exist and are killing themselves? Are we, in many cases, letting teens down who are identifying as trans by not addressing other issues in their lives?

[quote Subbaxeo]@EmbarrassingAdmissions I simply meant that if a man had surgery and taking long term hormone treatment to have female physical characteristics, then the risk of breast cancer is increased. So they come for screening. Incidentally, all visitors are banned from clinics unless they’re in a caring capacity because of Covid. And male patients coming to symptomatic clinics are in the same waiting room as women. But I’d imagine they are the ones feeling more embarrassed as it’s obviously a primarily female environment.[/quote]
As a man I'd be embarrassed for the hospital that it had failed to provide single sex spaces. I'd feel bad for teh women who thought they had a single sex space. I might be a bit embarrassed to be there where I shouldn't be if the hospital was doing it's job, but it would be barely perecptible because it wasn't my fault.

The problem here is a women's problem - listen to them. The man isn;t the victim in this.

@blettedmedlar

The worst rows I've ever had with my daughter (early 20s) have been about this. I've been called every name under the sun, ignorant, transphobic, stupid. Our relationship felt seriously threatened by our opposing views. Recently there are signs of the penny slowly dropping that the trans cult is a glitter covered turd. Unfortunately, it has come about in the worst possible way - a member of her uni friendship group was sexually assaulted by a trans woman in the same friendship group. I really feel for my daughter's friend, and what has happened to her. It's truly awful. It's an awful irony that the fact that it's something like this that seems to be waking them up to reality. That their ditzy, giggly little friend who liked to borrow their makeup and clothes is in fact a sexual predator. (I'm not saying all trans women are predators, far from it, before anyone piles on). The woke still runs deep, but it feels like there has been a real shift in the total blind acceptance of before. Sadly the friend didn't feel able to report this to the police or university authorities.

I have to say that reading through this thread I find it hard to believe that these teens will change short term unless they are forced to watch a powerful interview from an eloquent woman raped in prison, or they see the harm in real life. Proper visceral consequences right in their face. So sad.

@Bryonyshcmyony

Yeah I'm very pissed off. It's really unlike her we normally have good debates on things. She's going to a RG uni to study philosophy and it took all my strength to say you won't last 5 MINUTES.

Have you read much about the state of UK universities at the moment???

@RadandMad

My kids have tried this crap with me. I won't stand for it. No one is going to bloody lecture me on what a woman is, especially not my sons. I've stuck to my guns, made sure I know what I'm talking about, and been very vocal about where I stand and why. And they have shifted in their views, especially my youngest - he's a great deal less patronisingly woke now than a couple of years ago.

I think it's really important as a parent to provide a bedrock of reality, if that makes sense, and for kids to see that women are not there to be hectored and pushed around.

Not having a go at you but this drives me mad! Surely if you are WOKE you should acknowledge women's rights and the plight of white working class boys, not just trans?

@Beeeeeeeeeeeeeep

What makes things difficult is that platforms like TikTok ban gender critical creators so it's really difficult to get contra messages to young people who get most of their 'information' from them. We really do need some snappy, well made gender critical content to share with our young people. I showed DS some of Magdalen's funnier videos but the longer and more serious ones are beyond his concentration span.

The Life of Brian Clip?

So ageism comments are OK then ????

I've had some testing conversations with my DS and DSD on this but frankly I wouldn't stand for flouncing off in tears.

If they disagree with me fine.

Let's talk.

You don't win any argument with me (or anyone as an adult - or at least anyone worthy of respect) through emotional blackmail and as a parent it's a lesson I was willing to teach.

I must admit she sounds very naive.

"I just want to live in a world where trans people are accepted".

Ok in what sense are they not by her standards and what is she doing about it rather than calling you an old out of touch bugger?

Put the onus back on her to make her case rather than you pleading yours.

That's what worked for me. I stopped trying to change their minds and challenged them to change mine, based on facts and evidence.

Every time I was able to empirically prove they were incorrect they had to do more research to prove me wrong until they actually educated themselves beyond their own echo chamber.

She said people on tiktok say...

There needs to be a conversation about tiktok and examining the motivations and agendas of people.

@RedToothBrush

She said people on tiktok say...

There needs to be a conversation about tiktok and examining the motivations and agendas of people.

Indeed....

A conversation I had with the teens in the DRM household.

I can't emphasise how many times I said "show me the evidence - not social media tweets/videos etc but actual evidence" eg look up how how many TW have been murdered in the U.K. vs Women.

Look up the data on how many TW are in prison and for what offences.

Etc etc

I genuinely believe the issue here isn't about disagreeing on this particular subject

Its about being too influenced by what some dude on social media says and swallowing what they say to be in with the crowd rather than employing critically thinking and questioning the value of whats being said.

Its this subject this time around. What about the next subject?

Teaching the skills to think critically is much maligned, undervalued and dismissed (the principle is the core of history and media studies).

As you say DRM, you should be able to strengthen your argument when you do this - and the failure to be able to do this is a life lesson.

I think its too easy to go head on at this as a gender critical / trans conflict. Its not. Its much easier to disarm it and neutralise unquestioning repetition of ideology by teaching critical thinking.

Its how you tackle people who end up in cults / get involved with extremism.

I got “cancelled” from a social media group I was in for saying that Guardian articles weren’t actually “sources” 😂

This caused huge upset amongst the younger members, because I had suggested that journalistic articles in the media aren’t as good as actual research and data, and that was, apparently, very elitist and privileged of me. 🤣

@cakedays

I got “cancelled” from a social media group I was in for saying that Guardian articles weren’t actually “sources” 😂

This caused huge upset amongst the younger members, because I had suggested that journalistic articles in the media aren’t as good as actual research and data, and that was, apparently, very elitist and privileged of me. 🤣

This can be difficult because for a lot of people, they don't have access to research and they are not able to really read it with much insight.

One of the traditional jobs of respected media outlets was to interpret these things for people. And even if they had a particular POV about the topic what made them trusted was a sense that they would attempt to communicate what the research said accurately.

I think a lot of these people have been put in a difficult position because the sources they had some faith in are no longer holding themselves to that kind of standard. But there are still people convinced that the Guardian tries to work that way now.