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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

337 replies

Bryonyshcmyony · 11/06/2021 12:24

It came up on the news and I said something like surely its obvious that biological sex is real. Gender identity isn't the same as biological sex. She said people on tiktok say that there is a chromosomal spectrum. I said if someone has a chromosomal abnormality that's not proof that biological sex doesn't exist. Then she cried, said how frustrated I make her and just wants to live in a world where transpeople are accepted for who they are and its not her job to educate me as - and I quote - an ignorant old person.

I'm actually quite hurt. I don't want her to hate me! Obviously it's just a subject that is completely out of bounds. Anyone else faced similar?

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TedImgoingmad · 11/06/2021 12:44

She's going to an RG university? Are you paying for it? Perhaps she needs to think about whether she wants to be funded by some evil old bigot. Perhaps you need to ask yourself whether paying for her is value for money, when she can get all the education she seems to think she needs from Tik Tok.

Bryonyshcmyony · 11/06/2021 12:45

@TedImgoingmad

She's going to an RG university? Are you paying for it? Perhaps she needs to think about whether she wants to be funded by some evil old bigot. Perhaps you need to ask yourself whether paying for her is value for money, when she can get all the education she seems to think she needs from Tik Tok.
Grin
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WeeBisom · 11/06/2021 12:46

I had a similar encounter with my younger friend. She said that JK Rowling was transphobic. I said I disagreed, and asked her to point out the parts of the post that were transphobic. She said she hadn't read it. The discussion continued and I tried to explain to her that a definition is non informative and useless if it contains the word it's trying to define (she said 'a woman is anyone who says they are a woman') and I asked her to indicate some features that women have, so I might be able to identify who is or is not a woman. She absolutely exploded and said she 'didn't fucking care' if her definition was faulty, and she stomped off. The anger and frustration simmer just beneath the surface. I think it's because they have to confront the sheer cognitive dissonance of it all, which must be very distressing.

Bryonyshcmyony · 11/06/2021 12:47

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HeavenHotel · 11/06/2021 12:49

Luckily my teen daughter understands that people can't change sex. However my 35 year old is wokiness personified.

I'm a bigot... apparently.

We don't discuss these matters anymore. I've written about him before under another username. Maybe one day he'll see the sunlight!!

Cassandraprobs · 11/06/2021 12:52

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MadamBatty · 11/06/2021 12:53

Will she be allowed quote tik Tok as a source at her university?

PleasantBirthday · 11/06/2021 12:55

Will she be allowed quote tik Tok as a source at her university?

Yes, otherwise it's idiotphobia. That's a phobia, you know.

NanaNorasNaughtyKnickers · 11/06/2021 12:55

Yep. We've had similar. The crying then happens. They've been brainwashed and when reality sneaks in it makes them panic. It's actually quite frightening

This sounds like a case study in cognitive dissonance! Deeply held delusional beliefs, which have developed in an atmosphere devoid of facts, collide with reality, head explodes.

Bryonyshcmyony · 11/06/2021 12:55

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TeaAndStrumpets · 11/06/2021 12:57

@HeavenHotel

Luckily my teen daughter understands that people can't change sex. However my 35 year old is wokiness personified.

I'm a bigot... apparently.

We don't discuss these matters anymore. I've written about him before under another username. Maybe one day he'll see the sunlight!!

Yes my late 30s daughter is the same. My views are intolerable to her so I don't tell her what I think, ever. It is gut wrenching. I quit twitter because it upset her to read my opinions. More fool me I suppose but I love her and hate conflict.

She is an academic, and as far as I can tell from her twitter all her friends and colleagues either speak woke or totally avoid comment on GC things.

PioneerWoman · 11/06/2021 12:57

MadamBatty 😂.

Just rise above OP. Unfortunately they are brain washed at school. I am fortunate in that my teens zone out of the PSRE lessons and the various talks/assemblies.

babbaloushka · 11/06/2021 12:57

Feel lucky mine are pretty right on, I think some attention seeking non-binary types at school gave a healthy dose of reality, they just smile and nod and come home to tell me about how ridiculous it is. I think there's a lot of pressure from their peers to outdo each other's wokeness and be the ultimately kind and inclusive individual, at the expense of critical thinking. Hopefully she will grow out of it and become a bit more robust at uni!

SmokedDuck · 11/06/2021 12:58

I've had a lot of this with one of my teenage daughters. The older one is quite different and while we don't always agree on many things she is willing to engage in a robust discussion.

I don't think the difference is anything I've done, so much as a personality difference, the older takes after me and the younger her father (haha). But really, she is just far more inclined to black and white thinking and also has a very strong sense of empathy and justice. It's difficult for her to see that it can be ok for an issue to have more than one side, or to be sympathetic to people but also think they are wrong.

I do think though that there is a difference in this generation and it largely comes down to how they are educated. For all the talk of critical thinking and teaching kids how to engage rather than just facts bla bla bla, the effect of what they do is the exact opposite. It's a kind of indoctrination in a hierarchical model of thinking around identity issues, but it's not presented as a theory, it's the only paradigm they're given. And they don't have enough factual history or even science to raise questions about it.

They've also been taught that "diversity whatever that means is the ultimate good. There is a paragraph in a P.D. James novel where one of the policewomen, who attended a very rough school, remembers that the only spiritual or philosophical value they were taught there, in an attempt to keep order in the school, was ant-racism. Or what we might call tolerance. I think that's largely true, diversity and tolerance are the two controlling values they are taught, and so those are the lens through which all other information is viewed. Even science or what we might better call truth. A truth that doesn't align with those things, or what the individual thinks those things mean, cannot be true.

Those of us who are older maybe imagined that the primacy of truth was self-evident, but I think that unfortunately, it isn't.

IfNot · 11/06/2021 12:59

It does seem generally, just from the teens I know, that girls are at the forefront of the whole self Id / choose your pronouns thing. Teen son and his pals call this lot the "They/Thems" and think it's all bollocks. They are quite unapologetic about it all too. One girl complained to a teacher my son was transpgobic because he said in PHSE he would only go out with a biological girl. The teacher said it wasn't though, just his preference. Generally boys don't tie themselves in knots worrying about offending people. Hmmm

Mumoblue · 11/06/2021 12:59

Can’t even get my head around why she was upset. Chromosomes have nothing to do with transgender issues. Hmm

I think there needs to be a lot more education about the difference between “sex” and “gender”. And not from Tiktok.

ValerieMorghulis · 11/06/2021 12:59

Oh god I was similarly insulted yesterday by my teenager (over a different but related thing). It’s the first time I’ve heard her with these views and it really stung. Nonsensical words and the undoing of decades of feminist work making a better place for women.

I could weep, I really could

Cassandraprobs · 11/06/2021 13:00

It is extremely annoying, takes all my patience sometimes not to have a massive fight with DD about it. Have already told DH (in jest!!) that I'm going to be horrendous when I'm old to pay her back for all the teenage angst I've dealt with. I'm going to tell everyone she once believed in changing sex and then I'm going to pee myself for fun Grin

Bryonyshcmyony · 11/06/2021 13:00

@SmokedDuck

I've had a lot of this with one of my teenage daughters. The older one is quite different and while we don't always agree on many things she is willing to engage in a robust discussion.

I don't think the difference is anything I've done, so much as a personality difference, the older takes after me and the younger her father (haha). But really, she is just far more inclined to black and white thinking and also has a very strong sense of empathy and justice. It's difficult for her to see that it can be ok for an issue to have more than one side, or to be sympathetic to people but also think they are wrong.

I do think though that there is a difference in this generation and it largely comes down to how they are educated. For all the talk of critical thinking and teaching kids how to engage rather than just facts bla bla bla, the effect of what they do is the exact opposite. It's a kind of indoctrination in a hierarchical model of thinking around identity issues, but it's not presented as a theory, it's the only paradigm they're given. And they don't have enough factual history or even science to raise questions about it.

They've also been taught that "diversity whatever that means is the ultimate good. There is a paragraph in a P.D. James novel where one of the policewomen, who attended a very rough school, remembers that the only spiritual or philosophical value they were taught there, in an attempt to keep order in the school, was ant-racism. Or what we might call tolerance. I think that's largely true, diversity and tolerance are the two controlling values they are taught, and so those are the lens through which all other information is viewed. Even science or what we might better call truth. A truth that doesn't align with those things, or what the individual thinks those things mean, cannot be true.

Those of us who are older maybe imagined that the primacy of truth was self-evident, but I think that unfortunately, it isn't.

Wow. How nice it is to be able to talk to intelligent people about this.
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BetterThanKleenex · 11/06/2021 13:01

Good for her Smile

zafferana · 11/06/2021 13:02

I'm delighted that my 13yo DS is full-on GC. I'm proud of him Grin

Bryonyshcmyony · 11/06/2021 13:03

@ValerieMorghulis

Oh god I was similarly insulted yesterday by my teenager (over a different but related thing). It’s the first time I’ve heard her with these views and it really stung. Nonsensical words and the undoing of decades of feminist work making a better place for women.

I could weep, I really could

Yes. It actually really hurts that she finds my former feminist protesting days abhorrent. I always thought then that I was partially doing it for any future daughters I might have.
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Bryonyshcmyony · 11/06/2021 13:04

@BetterThanKleenex

Good for her Smile
Well, yes, there are people that would think this but I'm not sure what they are doing on a feminist chat board.
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vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 11/06/2021 13:04

My 13, 15 and 17 year olds are all GC. I'd like to take credit, but, what turned them was seeing the way their trans and NB peers behave. They don't want any of that drama in their lives. "It's just attention seeking, mum".

babbaloushka · 11/06/2021 13:04

@HeavenHotel

Luckily my teen daughter understands that people can't change sex. However my 35 year old is wokiness personified.

I'm a bigot... apparently.

We don't discuss these matters anymore. I've written about him before under another username. Maybe one day he'll see the sunlight!!

My daughter's SIL is the exact same. A straight, white university graduate raised in the pits of privilege, very limited experience of the real world working for some PR company in London on a good wage. She's full of it and can't forgo any opportunity to let everyone on Instagram know just how progressive and woke she is, in case they forget. It's so performative and makes her attempts at feminism laughable, despite doing a dissertation on it, she clearly has a poor understanding of what feminism actually entails. It's not all pretty books and pink infographics to post on Instagram.