My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

[Bryonyshcmyony]

It came up on the news and I said something like surely its obvious that biological sex is real. Gender identity isn't the same as biological sex. She said people on tiktok say that there is a chromosomal spectrum. I said if someone has a chromosomal abnormality that's not proof that biological sex doesn't exist. Then she cried, said how frustrated I make her and just wants to live in a world where transpeople are accepted for who they are and its not her job to educate me as - and I quote - an ignorant old person.

I'm actually quite hurt. I don't want her to hate me! Obviously it's just a subject that is completely out of bounds. Anyone else faced similar?

If my child called me an ignorant old person I would be coming down on that hard. Who the fuck does she think she is?

As for using tik tok for scientific education... Words fail me.

No I've never faced it. I'd probably just tell my kids to get over it, tbh. I don't pander to that kind of teenage shit.

Luckily my DD1 is only 7 but I hope the world will have seen reason by the time she is old enough to be aware of it all.

I would be encouraging her to do her own research into this and, when she can have a civilised discussion without resorting to name calling (something TRAs aren’t very good at!), you will accept her apology for calling you ignorant and old.

Yeah I'm very pissed off. It's really unlike her we normally have good debates on things. She's going to a RG uni to study philosophy and it took all my strength to say you won't last 5 MINUTES.

Anyone else faced similar?
What, a teenager being moody? Plenty!
Just laugh. It infuriates them.
Or make a tik-tok yourself and embarrass them.

Softly, softly with teenagers. It's a long old project.

You probably can't have one simple conversation that will express the nuances of this.
Yesterday's decision is actually very simple but stunningly important. The right to hold your opinion (assuming it's GC) is, and has always been (since the EA came into force) a protected characteristic.
It doesn't condone harassment. But does clarify that the GC position is valid and protected in law. You should be free from being discriminated against for holding those views and do not require re-education.

@senua

Anyone else faced similar? What, a teenager being moody? Plenty! Just laugh. It infuriates them. Or make a tik-tok yourself and embarrass them.

Softly, softly with teenagers. It's a long old project.

Yeah. I think if I'd laughed she'd have run away. Not sure why I bothered trying to raise them as feminists when they are willing to give it all up so easily.

I really sympathise. It's upsetting and I've had similar episodes with my teen DD. It sometimes feels like their generation have been brainwashed and/or lost all capacity for independent thought.

What upsets/enrages me most is the combination of her disgust at my wrongheadedness along with her lack of acceptance that e.g., Tiktok is a reliable source of information. One incident involved her wanging on about JKR being a transphobe. I asked her what the evidence for this was. She could not come up with anything better than 'everyone knows she is'. I asked her to read JKR's letter and then tell me whether she is transphobic and if so why. She just wouldn't engage with it.

Teenagers love a "cause". Even more so if it's one that they can argue with their folks about.

Biological sex is a basic fact. Acknowledging that doesnt make a person transphobic. She has a lot to learn.

@newdocket

I really sympathise. It's upsetting and I've had similar episodes with my teen DD. It sometimes feels like their generation have been brainwashed and/or lost all capacity for independent thought.

What upsets/enrages me most is the combination of her disgust at my wrongheadedness along with her lack of acceptance that e.g., Tiktok is a reliable source of information. One incident involved her wanging on about JKR being a transphobe. I asked her what the evidence for this was. She could not come up with anything better than 'everyone knows she is'. I asked her to read JKR's letter and then tell me whether she is transphobic and if so why. She just wouldn't engage with it.

Yep. We've had similar. The crying then happens. They've been brainwashed and when reality sneaks in it makes them panic. It's actually quite frightening

The first time this issue cropped up with my eldest DD she literally ran out of the room shouting 'You can't say that!' I think I'd suggested that if Caitlin Jenner has a penis, they are probably not a woman.
We just go easy on each other - we disagree, but that's allowed.
( However she's wrong and I know that one day she will agree with me 😉)

It sometimes feels like their generation have been brainwashed and/or lost all capacity for independent thought.

If it makes you feel any better, I probably would have agreed with them when I was a bull-headed teen. I have since grown up and understand things so much more now. I hope a lot of this wokeness will be grown out of.

She must be about the same age as my DD judging by the uni comment, I've had to just keep the trans discussion with DD quite subtle to avoid too many rows as I think that just makes them cling onto their viewpoint all the more, I remember being the same.

DD was vehemently on my GC side a couple of years ago, couldn't believe people were questioning the truth of biological sex, but lately she's been swayed over to the 'be kind', 'it's a spectrum' side very strongly, think it's what they hear from around them and you just have to hold fast and wait for common sense to evolve.

Definitely wouldn't tolerate the rudeness though but I'd stick to small manageable discussions though and agree to disagree when it starts getting heated, if you push the topic too much she'll just dig her heels in. It's very frustrating but I think they'll come round when adult life hits.

My youngest daughter is very gender critical (hate that term). She says she'd be very kind to transwomen but they aren't women and shouldn't compete with biological women.

Sadly if she's going to study Philosophy she might find everyone agrees with her.

My DH is an ex-Philosopher and attends a few online reading groups. He sometimes runs a few names past me who are going to talk about feminism and I have to say 'For Goodness sake, don't ask any questions at this talk or they'll chuck you out of the group'

Sometimes its speakers he has met who appeared perfectly normal in every other way.

And no, there is never any evidence that any of them has ever met an actual transwoman in real life. It's all posh women with luxury beliefs.

I think the shell of reality around some of these ideas is very thin. Fine when you only discuss it with people who agree with you. Deeply uncomfortable when challenged. I think this is one of the reason it's so upsetting.

"People on TikTok say", oh well case closed if people on TikTok say. I have a 22 year old daughter with whom I can't discuss this subject at all as she gets shouty and flounces (basically because she doesn't have an argument).

As you said, chromosomal abnormality is just that, an abnormality. Some people are born with six toes on each foot, it doesn't mean the number of toes a human has are on a spectrum!

I blame all the "be kind" twaddle, aimed at girls and designed to restrict critical thinking. Hopefully they will grow out of it eventually.

Just an observation, but it seems to be mainly girls mentioned on this thread. Does anyone with sons have the same “be kind” and gender is a spectrum with their sons?

Smile sweetly and answer “aah yes I remember being just like you, oh the innocence of youth”
Goes down like a lead brick

Honestly she’s just being a teen - they know everything!

Don't want to sound patronising but they've grown up in a relatively safe world where mum deals with fighting the patriarchy, DV is something that happens to 'other people' and there's hope they'll be treated equally in the world, jobs, family etc. Once they actually start dealing with these things themselves without mum as the safety net they'll have to see it for what it is and the GC arguments will make more sense.

She's come down and made me a coffee. I'm still smarting over the old and ignorant comment but hiding it well. I feel a bit sorry for myself and wish I hadn't bothered trying to chat to them about current affairs etc

God there's always a cause for the teens, isn't there? I mean, I can't really remember but I'm sure I thought my mother was a pathetic old person who didn't understand the world because she was like, old etc (my Dad escaped because he was blithely uninterested in engaging with us at that level).

It's very annoying and I'm sure when mine is older it'll be something too. But I think it's a phase that all teenagers have to go through, just the topic changes.

Still though, she should speak to you with respect in your own home. There is a line that she shouldn't cross, no matter how frustrated she is with your tragic oldness.

@Cassandraprobs

Don't want to sound patronising but they've grown up in a relatively safe world where mum deals with fighting the patriarchy, DV is something that happens to 'other people' and there's hope they'll be treated equally in the world, jobs, family etc. Once they actually start dealing with these things themselves without mum as the safety net they'll have to see it for what it is and the GC arguments will make more sense.

Yes! Thanks this thread is really helping.

@Reallyreallyborednow

Just an observation, but it seems to be mainly girls mentioned on this thread. Does anyone with sons have the same “be kind” and gender is a spectrum with their sons?

Most of the ‘real’ boys and men I know (and by ‘real’ I mean in real life, not on Twitter) don’t give a shit or agree that men shouldn’t be waltzing into women’s safe spaces.

One transwoman I know I’ve had to block on Facebook because of their beliefs on JKR being transphobic. Took all my effort not to scream.

It's upsetting because they know its nonsense. It's cognitive dissonance.

No one would burst into tears and run away if you said "even if you dye blonde hair it's still brown underneath".

They might roll their eyes or wonder what on earth your point was, but it's true, so not worth a quarrel.